Yeesh... The new iPad skips laminated display for reduced price...

Discussion in 'Apple/iOS' started by Shogmaster, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. Steve B

    Steve B Moderator Moderator

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    That’s silly. Of course you can compare them. Particularly if you’re going to use them for similar functions. Even more so if they’re both expensive. Each offers a subset of additional benefits besides being a screen that accepts pen input- size, portability, OS, etc. That goes in to choosing a tool.

    It’s just like critiquing the iPad for not being able to run Photoshop or something. That’s a completely legitimate critique if it affects how you’re going to use it. The comparisons go the other way too, of course.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  2. doobiedoobiedum

    doobiedoobiedum Scribbler - Standard Member

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    If I compared an iPad running Astropad attached to a Mac Pro vs a Cintiq attached to a Mac Pro I wouldn't have said anything. Otherwise I just don't see the comparison being valid as it would be like comparing a dip pen with no ink in it to a biro loaded with ink.
     
  3. Steve B

    Steve B Moderator Moderator

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    Well, I obviously disagree with you, but that’s cool. They both ink. That’s my point. It’s all about cost benefit analysis.
     
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  4. DaniJoy

    DaniJoy www.danijoy.com

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    yah bro true true. both are so good and it comes down to personal preference. i could honestly draw on anything after a bit of time to adjust to the medium. i do notice the lack of accuracy at certain viewing angles on the ipad pro- its pretty close to pro pen 2 accuracy levels. i find for inking Ipad lacks a bit of accuracy but value drawing or painting the ipad is fine. I just save line work for the cintiq. Both still have a digital disconnect and feel strange if you draw and paint traditionally more often (i have side gig teaching/ selling traditional figure drawings and paintings- so i use analogue media allot) , with the cintiq feeling a bit more natural to me due to the screen texture and better IAF and pressure curves that i prefer.

    have you tried pro pen 2? to me its just as accurate as my ipad pro, for interface clicks, but it does get a little bit off close to edges. Its good enough for vector work i do which still scales horribly in windows 10 at 4k- tiny interface! Friggen Adobe!

    great time to be a tablet pc addict! so many good options . i go back and forth between cintiq and ipad pro daily and the difference is minor. I mostly dislike the feel of the apple and the battery powered stylus that always is empty. I wish apple would just buy wacom so they could get the best pen tech. battery powered stylus is stupid and annoying IMO.
     
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  5. DaniJoy

    DaniJoy www.danijoy.com

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    interesting, Im a real ipad pro owner since 2015 launch and didnt notice a difference between the 12.9 and 9.7. I tested them side by side before i sold off the 12.9. the 12.9 was hard to justify when the MSP16 came out because its to under-powered for my needs and im not a fan of the apple pencil. didnt need such a big companion device. the 9.7 pro is my sweet spot for a mobile sketch book and battery powered portable second screen for my MSP16, but the pencil always drains when its moving. you can turn off blue tooth and it supposedly saves battery drain, but its rather annoying apple does not have a better charging system. i just want my pencil to work. i cant count how many times ive whipped out my apple pencil and gotten "battery empty" and had to wait to re-sync Bluetooth or charge the pencil. if you draw for long hours expect to take lots of breaks to constantly charge the thing. this really sucks IMO. i find i use the ipad pro less and less and just grab a regular sketchbook, no parallax, no slick glass or charging issues and its very cheap! i do like retouching my traditional drawings on the ipad pro. i use it the most for this. oh and drawing in bed. MSP is to big for this. I prefer the cintiq for all my high rez digital stuff and design work.

    I find tweaking the pressure curve in the driver on the pro pen 2 makes the pressure curve much more usable and i notice the difference compared to the apple pencil. I can use huge brushes and just rely on pressure for line work. no brush resizing. its very impressive. IAF is better on the pro pen 2 also, but i dont think most people could tell the difference. i notice the pro pen 2 pressure curve more. its amazing, especially as the driver has matured over the last year and a half.

    I think the ipad pro pressure curve is pretty good, especially after tweaking it in the app settings. you can notice the lack of range if you compare them side by side, but very few get this luxury or have the dexterity to notice the difference.

    interesting hypothesis on ipad pro vs new ipad latency. would be fun to test it out. sounds like my assumption might be wrong. i know hardware speed matters allot to some people. im holding out to see what the apple pencil 2 is like before i invest in another ipad pro. its hard to go justify the price of the apple after using it so long and seeing where it fits into my workflow. Wacom is more expensive for sure, but its a tax write off for me and since i use these things every day having the stuff that performs the best for me and that i like the most is a luxury i want to pay for.

    if apple got rid of the charging solution, had a textured screen, 15+ inches and hardware cintiq like mode, wacom would be in big trouble. apple pencil IAF and pressure curve is good enough IMO.
     
  6. DaniJoy

    DaniJoy www.danijoy.com

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    This is only true if you dont need or value professional grade apps and features. I cant make a living off my ipad pro. none of those tech specs matter to me at all without pro apps and art centered features. to me they just amount to worthless "gimmicks". For others it might be just fine, so YMMV
     
  7. DaniJoy

    DaniJoy www.danijoy.com

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    on both pro pen 2 and apple pencil I look at where i am writing, because they are both very accurate. admittedly, the pro pen 2 does have increased offset near edges. but in the center its dead on accurate like apple pencil. IMO, the floating cursor is very easy to get used to (and increases my accuracy over apple pencil on entire drawing surface-important for vector), its just like drawing with vine charcoal , you have to get used to using edges while drawing, and constantly sharpen it. there is a little offset inherent in the medium. to get the line quality you want you have to become conscious of media behavior. even regular pencil sharpened draftsman style you have to be conscious of the tip offset, wear, and angles can cause unintended mark placement. in a way you are expecting more of digital drawing devices than is possible with some traditional media! essentially its like arguing pen is better than vine charcoal because, "accuracy". to me a whole systems rich feature approach is more important than trivial things like pixel level accuracy and blazing speeds. hence why i prefer wacom as they are engineered for artists. whereas the ipad is a tablet with stylus added on later for budget conscious people and simpler workflows.

    I love procreate! have almost a thousand drawings in it. fantastic sketching and digital painting app with amazing performance. I just wish the ipad had more ram than 4gb so i could open up more documents from my cintiq workstation for quick retouching.

    not sure if this would be a good idea, i think it would make parallax more obvious depending on viewing angles. the pencil tip hides the offset.
     
  8. siddhartth

    siddhartth Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Apple has good enough accuracy margin to further reduce the thickness of the nib is all I am saying. Even the 0.7 nib of SPen and pencil (Staedler Norris version) has no observable parallax. I don't think Apple's iPad has more parallax than Wacom. In fact, I found none when I tested it. The only thing that put me off was its slipperiness and thickness, I just don't know how Wacom has been able to keep the parallax so unnoticeable. I am sure if they can then definitely Apple can too. The only challenge here is, Wacom EMR has both the thinness and the felt texture both in the same package. Can Apple miniaturize their Pencil tip components further, so that they can put a felt texture coating on the pencil tip? Those who want the texture will have to replace it often before the smooth plastic shows through.
    In fact, like how most school kids will settle for the Logitech crayon, without the pressure sensitivity of the pencil. I will settle for an Adonit-made thinner version of apple pencil with a good enough pressure curve but without the tilt sensitivity.

    I really admire the fact that, like how Micdosoft has opened up it's pen protocol for third parties, Apple too has opened up it's pen technology to it's third party accessory makers.

    But onething is certain Apple does need to evolve the pencil further to make it a better productivity tool. Be it eraser, thickness or texture, they need to achieve parity with how natural writing on the Note8 feels, also they need to make iphones all of them compatible with stylus, including the SE, just to beat Samsung at it's own game. Its frustating how elitist Microsoft and Samsung are, both have discontinued the Surface 10" and Note Neo range which used to bring stylus power at more affordable price point, which students can actually buy. Apple has really taken the whole digital inking industry by surprise with their lowcost iPad. An iphone SE with stylus compatibility will disrupt the phone market to shreds. Apple really has a big window of opportunity here to establish iOS as the primary convertible and well as phone operating system. And yes 3D touch needs to come over to ipad too if it apple doesnot bring in baked in mouse compatibility.Students and working class people deserve pen productivity too not just the rich. I guess at the high price the Samsung Note8comes at it's main target audience is, business executives needing SPen as a precision mobile gaming accessory for android games while they wait for their flight in VIP loungue. That will get even better when samsung will announce that the next Note9 also has a 120Hs display to make gaming experience better on infinity display.


    Once, an iphone with pen compatibility will launch, no body will remember if they ever wanted a surface phone. I am of firm belief that iOS will soon gobble up macOS and become a singular OS that a general consumer is content with. Both Google and Microsoft make better apps for iOS than their own platforms, except for a few minor inconveniences general consumer is not going to lose much.

    Microsoft will have to bring in the foldable pocket surface device to remain relevant. A device that corresponds to the size of an ipadmini (sans the bezels) when folded and double that when unfolded, it will have calling capacity but with that form factor they will be able to avoid the infamous Windows mobile tag, which no body wants. The device needs to run windows10S not WindowsMobileOS.

    Windows will become a niche productivity OS and Android will remain what it largely is today a cheapphoneOS.

    Sure a surface courier will be an expensive device, but if Apple can survive making expensive hardware for so long. I am sure Microsoft's Surface line will too. With it's price tags Microsoft is the New Apple anyway. But Till the day NTrig is as good as WacomEMR and SurfaceFoldPad/courier arrives. I will be happy toting around an ipad 12.9 and an iphone SE(penabled). And till the day iphoneSEwith pen comes, iPad12.9 alone is good enough.
    They need to move away from stationary small cintiqs to baggable battery laden writing pads with USBc connection which require just a USBC cable to connect with your cheaper windows10 laptop and android phones without pen. I am talking about consumer friendly 7"" to 13" cintiqs with an 4:3 screen ratio and thick batteries. But ofcourse, Wacom needs to provide it at a pricepoint that is competetive with ipad pricing for every squarecmm of display for every gram of weight. I would not mind if such a product instead of directly coming from wacom comes from Samsung and Dell instead. Infact, given the build quality and scale of Dell and Samsung they will be better than wacom itself.

    Cintiq prices can only be justified for larger screen like 24" and 32", even though Artisul, yininova and surface studio are making that pricepoint uncomfortable from below and above respectively.


    All it needs is, Apple to enable a true Cintiq mode (not Astropad ) on ipads to make wacom extinct, seriously people wont even wait for Apple Pencil 2 or merger of iOS and macOS.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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  9. WillAdams

    WillAdams Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Yeah, as I've noted in other threads the text selection debacle on Windows 10 with Fall Creators Update has me seriously considering other options and a leading contender is an iPad Pro, AstroPad, and a Mac Mini --- simplifying / improving on that would make it a much more palatable decision.

    I think the ideal would be a docking solution like to the PowerBook Duo, but done so as to allow the iPad to be used as a second display / tablet.
     
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  10. doobiedoobiedum

    doobiedoobiedum Scribbler - Standard Member

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    I took my young students to galleries in Edinburgh yesterday and at they had a teacher tutoring adult students in National Gallery probably promotionally.
    They were drawing portraits from the sculpture busts - a brave thing to do in front of a traditional "art aware" audience and they were bad. I don't mean "bad" as in "teenager street language" good - they were awful. Earwigging the tutor, the students must have been on their 2nd / 3rd day and not one had managed to get decent proportions yet (the previous drawings were available for the public to look through). Two days!

    Luckily my students had dispersed to most of the contemporary arts galleries and none were at the National Gallery with me - they would have said something to the tutor...


    Don't be so sure - a couple of times since the last 2 OSX updates, my MacBook has shown a bit of strange cursor behaviour - once in Photoshop CS6 and another time while editing a Facebook post. Could be something to do with the security updates a while ago and it's not as bad as what Win 10 Creator's update has done to my Photoshop and Illustrator stylus activity but something's afoot.
     
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