What CSP on iOS has taught me: NTrig still sucks, EMR is still king, Apple Pencil best among Pro Cap

Discussion in 'The Tablet PC Life' started by Shogmaster, May 17, 2018.

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  1. darkmagistric

    darkmagistric Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I thought something was amiss with your glowing recommendations of Tablets with MPP these past few months Shog. Was thinking you must have been sipping some NJ tap water or something.

    Purely subjective on my end.....but the Generic flavor of MPP still wildly used in most 2-in-1's is the early Pro 3 era Ntrig/MPP.....the decreased speed/lag of the hovering cursor is a dead giveaway....it was significantly improved for the Pro 4 and up. So the current nSP and Book 2 should perform noticeably better then the Canvas or HP Envy.

    That being said I fully agree with your ordering....EMR is still king and the Apple Pencil....would be second. By chance in your usage of the Pencil and Clip Studio.....did you find the lack of a hovering cursor kind of really really annoying? I bounce between CSP on both my Galaxy Book 10.6 and 9.7 Ipad Pro which are pretty much the same overall size....and the lack of a cursor really puts a cramp in my speed in CSP...to the point where for life drawing class's I use Medibang Paint on the iPad instead just because the interface doesn't get in the way or accidentally resized/ordered as it can in CSP.
     
  2. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    I only tried the MSP at CES, and only with Photoshop, but it should function like all other DTK digitizer devices for the pen experience. The issue is the CPU, which are 6th gen 15W parts. Spending that much for 15W dual core in 2018 is terrible value, whether they are mated to a low voltage Quadro GPU or not. Basically, my T902 would out perform it on must brushes in CSP. The only benefit is that the MSP will give you tilt in Wintab.

    As for iPad Pro, I don't mind the slickness of the screen. I prefer that in my Windows tablets too. The issue I notice is the same issue with all pro cap digitizers: There is a micro delay when you touch down on the pressure responsiveness. I can never approach the pressure responsiveness of EMR with any of the pro cap active pens. Some are better than others, AES and Apple Pencil are neck and neck in this regard. AES might have smidgen better pressure responsiveness especially at the start the pressure load. But Apple Pencil gets the edge with the tilt functionality. But Wacom EMR puts both to shame.
     
  3. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    You do have a fair point, since the biggest problem with my HP is that CPU has to do all the pen related processing, where as newer MS stuff has that M3 processor dedicated for pen processing. I think Z Canvas does better than the HP by the sheer horsepower of the CPU (35/45W vs 15W). But the chasm between NTrig and others are so large,I doubt even with the PixelSense accelerator in the premium MPP devices like Surface Pro and Surface Book can make up the difference in that pressure responsiveness. From all the press on the PixelSense Accelerator, the focus seemed to have been on reducing the lag of the digital ink flowing. That could be at the sacrifice of the pressure reponsiveness, and having used the demo machines with packed in apps, I think that's what's happening.

    As for AES, I have owned used 3 AES devices, 2 with proper Wacom panel (Thinkpad Yoga 14 and Dell Inspiron 7568) and one with Elan panel (Miix 700). The pen action on the Wacom ones were definitely more responsive. I've been attributing that to the CPU (5th gen Core M on Miix 700, and 6th gen i5 and i7 on the others), but now I'm thinking it's the panel and it's ASIC. Elan panel fills the basic requirement to be used with AES pens, but it does feel less responsive vs the Wacom ones, even with low resolution canvas. I believe Wacom digitizers have more processing on the ASIC for pen computations. And that also explains why my Asus Vivotab Note 8 with mere Atom Z3740D's Wacom EMR board performs better with the pen than any of the Ntirg dces I have owned in pressure responsiveness.
     
  4. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    I'm gonna blame Procreate. It's reputation led me to assume that it's the Pencil's problem. After using CSP on the iPad Pro first time, I immediately knew I was wrong. It was Procreate making my sketches look like ****, not the Pencil.
     
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  5. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    I agree that the most of the MPP panels must be very bare in ASIC, off loading the computation on the CPU. My HP is utter **** when I start sketching fast. The pressure responsiveness goes into the toilet real quick. It does better on long single strokes.

    As for iPad Pro and lack of cursor on CSP, that part does not bother me at all. When I sketch, I know exactly what my hand will do, so I don't need the cursor to help me locate myself on the canvas. I only have problem with lack of pressure responsiveness. IAF is fine, but the transition between light and heavy pressure (and back and forth) while sketching fast is no where as good as with Wacom EMR.
     
  6. Azzart

    Azzart Late night illustrator Senior Member

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    In Clip Studio I find the experience with the Surface Book 2 to be fine, although I miss the near perfection of the Galaxy Book 12 + Staedtler

    The problems arise when one happens to use Photoshop because that software is a mess in understanding correctly the pressure curve of newer pens from the Surface Pro 3 and up. Unless it's a Wacom intuos/Cintiq.
    Not even the 4096 levels of the Samsung flavour emr translate correctly.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  7. stoneseeker

    stoneseeker Animator and Art Director Senior Member

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    I couldn't agree more. For a while I was constantly in the "what tablet should I buy?" forum making the recommendation to artists asking for a reliable mobile cintiq to just snag a T902 and be done with it. I would raise a few eyebrows with the recommendation, even when the T902 was only 4 years old. Although we eventually got machines like the Z Canvas, which finally put the T902 in its place with its CPU power, we had yet to see a true "successor" to the T902 (Wacom EMR married with powerful specs).
    I'm really hoping the ZBook fixes whatever issues its driver or firmware is facing, since it really seems like the first device since the T902 to offer what I'm looking for on paper at least. Even if it does get up to par in drawing experience, its a bit of a hit in ergonomics/useability for me to leave the laptop convertible form factor, though that I could live with in the end.
    Having a full voltage CPU and Wacom EMR can not be overstated in its importance to my workflow and needs.
     
  8. stoneseeker

    stoneseeker Animator and Art Director Senior Member

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    waaait...
    Although I never got to extensively test a MSP, I thought that Mobile Studio Pro used 28 watt i7-6567U ?? It has a base clock frequency of 3.3ghz, in contrast to the T902 2.9ghz. Of course its quite possible that the T902 still maintains a higher clock speed for longer, if the MSP is unable to sustain its own base clock for long periods of painting, but in theory the MSP should hold up pretty close, if not a little better in CPU department, no?
     
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  9. darkmagistric

    darkmagistric Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Indeed it does.

    The first Cintiq Companion used a 15w CPU.....but for the Cintiq Companion 2 & Mobile Studio Pro they went for the 28w CPU's that additional opened up Iris Graphics as an options since they weren't available to 15w cores until the 7th gen.

    But given how 15watters can now have Iris Graphics and Quad Cores....a Mobile Studio Refresh/2 could very well end up with a 15watter again.
     
  10. doobiedoobiedum

    doobiedoobiedum Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Yeah, but different people have different experience with iPad Pro's using a range of the software already available - there are enough people in a range of digital industry who actively use iPads with a stylus to produce art and design work that is part of an active pipeline including other tech to know that views on this forum tend to be very jaded and negative - despite the evidence out there.
     
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