Wacom experiencing Hard Times...

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by thatcomicsguy, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. okieiam

    okieiam Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Well well
    IMO, there is new opportunity, new market for Wacom
    For example, me, myself not much interested in Wacom table if I haven't experiencing pen on TabletPC. Then when I try Wacom tablet, all TabletPC with pen, from junk manufacturers to Samsung, Microsoft, Dell, ... all of them are just joke....
    When people get used with digital pen, they will surely move to Wacom.
    Wacom is till the Professional grade
    It is like digital art vs real art
    Have you seen any digital arts master pieces sold in Sotheby's?
    So it is the bite or the buy?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  2. Spraaq

    Spraaq Pen Pal - Newbie

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    I wonder if all these mobile devices with digitizers are actually hurting the industry in some ways. Sure it's nice thing that you have mobility but in the same time being part of a mobile device at least doubles the cost of the digitizer surface area. A PC and a chinese tablet will give you much more power and surface to work on for your money, yet this seems to be the least popular choice nowdays. The result is that whenever you spend 1$ on a pen surface you spend additional 2-3 for mobile hardware.
     
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  3. Steve S

    Steve S Pen Pro - Senior Member Super Moderator

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    <<...whenever you spend 1$ on a pen surface you spend additional 2-3 for mobile hardware...>>

    ...You raise an interesting point. From my perspective, new technology, regardless of its type, is always pricy. In fact, the very issue that you bring up is largely responsible for the rise of N-trig (lower cost, "simpler" implementation...) and active pen systems in general. Is the ratio as steep as you speculate above? I'm not sure; "mobility" encompasses more than just inking. And the sum of the parts may not nearly equal the whole...
     
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  4. Spraaq

    Spraaq Pen Pal - Newbie

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    I guess the ratio is actually correct, it was a semi-educated guess. When I found an other forum a few years ago and saw thatcomicsguy awesome Tecra hack I started to look into the VAIO products (probably because the YouTube manga commercials). VAIO Flip 15" screens with digitizers are sold around 290$ I also saw some control boards around 40-50$ in a shady webshop (granted I don't know how would someone hack this things together to get a usable product, not even sure if it's possible) the laptop itself is around 1500-2000$, to be fair this is probably an extreme case among mobile devices (well not since the Surface Studio).

    But let's take Huion GT 19" as a standard (it's not Wacom grade) 20$ per inch. The cheapest device on the absolutely fantastic Windows excel sheet is probably the Cube Mix Plus, 48$ per inch. The next is the Lenovo Miix 510 57$ per inch, the MateBook has a similar offer, than there is a bunch of 12" devices with steadily increasing prices. (calculated with current eBay prices)

    Now if you take a dedicated Wacom device as a standard than yes, these devices start to look pretty good.:)
     
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  5. crazycat

    crazycat Pen Pal - Newbie

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    Actually, if you take into account used device, used tablet a few generation late will cost much less than a standalone desktop setup.

    I wouldn’t count the huion, or ugree.... Due to their driver and various screen problem. The closest to Wacom would be the Yiynova MVP 20+FE (good driver support, near IPS viewing angle, fullHD, long time in the industry, a lot of positive review) that is 431$( shipping included from amazon). Now pair that with a decent enough hardware and we are looking at ~40$+ per inch and that is no touch. And those system would at least triple the electrict cost of a mobile device.

    My hp x2 612 g1 was bought 2 generation late as a manufacturer refub for 400$, the original was around 1000$. It has a 12 inch Wacom display with 10 touch point, which foolproof any driver problem. IPS display is fantastic, the hardware is 2 generation late but still good. Because it's a light device, HP offer free shipping. I only charge it once or twice a day, and it sip much less power than an office setup.

    Also drawing size is not everything; there is also touch, screen resolution and viewing angle (it's just in recent years that alternative offer full HD and IPS display that Wacom offered for years and those still cost in the 600$), And because 13 incher with IPS has same res as 20 inch one with VA display, these is not much price difference (just compare the price of 13" artisul and 20" yiynova)

    Then these is also the matter of drawing small or draw big. I'm in small camp and can live with the 12" as my home office device, but @thatcomicsguy for example will need much better drawing space.

    So all in all it's a matter of preference and comparing mobile and workstation is like compare apple and orange. With the same budget (900$ for example) one can pick a 20" 431$ yiynova and a 4xx$ destop. Or one can also pick a new 15.6" dell with Wacom. And who know, the laptop guy might later want a bigger display and the desktop guy might later want to draw on a couch.

    Edit: Forgot to add another advantage of mobile device : cheaper importing cost for people outside US: A clunky heavy big display will add at least 1/4 of the display price for the shipping cost(if cheap one like a yiynova). A light tablet or laptop is much cheaper to bring home, especially if you have friend or family in the US to help you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
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  6. Aman

    Aman Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Exactly.
    I agree with this completely.
    Its not just the price, but even the mobility and form factor that many customers are looking at in devices like the surface range of devices, other surface pro like devices as well as the iPad Pro.

    Its okay to compromise on not the most essential stuff but what's more important is accuracy and mobility, instantanious inking.The jitter at slow speeds is least of a issue with me than the parallax. (That is not to say that jitter issue be not fixed.)

    There are people like me looking at documenting ideas quickly, anytime anywhere without sticking to one table(Computational Thinking).Not everyone is a artist who wants high pressure levels.There are engineers, products designers too who need a different class of product which is more portable.Such consumers just need to get the job done without needing to know what pen it is or how to callibrate the pen.

    For me, in the mobile consumer space ,EMR is just junk accept the Galaxy Book, specifically as far as Parallax is concerned and that's why most mobile PC makers use N-Trig or AES today.

    Wacom's market share would have reduced by 90 percent had it not launched AES tech which was the direct response of success of the Surface Pro 3 pen tech in the mobile space.After all its a mobile first cloud first world as Satya Nadella says. Thanks to AES,wacom is again in amongst the top position in the industry.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  7. Spraaq

    Spraaq Pen Pal - Newbie

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    There is that thing that PC parts always going to be cheaper, the amount of money you spend on a used laptop still going to give you less power compared to used PC parts due the size differences and you can buy older or used PC parts too. Besides where I live a new HP you mentioned cost about 1360$ and I can't find refurbished ones, basicly anything none chinese cost about 200$ more here than in the US. The only cheap older device I could find locally is the x220 but that thing seems to have a horrible screen, granted it's really cheap. Maybe it was a mistake but I also assumed that most people here already have good enough PC's for (hobby level) art anyway, so you really just need to purchase a 400-500$ drawing tablet from China.

    My concern is the following, the current trend seems to be that every time you buy an apple (drawing capability) you buy an orange (expensive mobile specs) too, isn't this will result in people getting less apple, and wouldn't be the apple better of coupled with bannanas (cheaper PC specs) in the long run?

    On a side note what is especially scarry for me is that there aren't any outrage against the Surface Studio.
    (I have a hard time expressing myself in english)
     
  8. crazycat

    crazycat Pen Pal - Newbie

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    I live in Vietnam, where all those beauty business oriented penabled tablets or pen display will never be available locally, instead there is only Apple and entertainment crap laptop. I had bargain hunting on hp official outlet or ebay and either use forwarding service or ask for help from friends studying abroad. And buying it is with a risk of never getting warranty considering the distance.

    Also Yiynova is not cheap outside US. The 400$ display in US Yiynova sell for 700$ in other region, even in SEA and China (I researched). New device is very slowly updated and their warranty is crap outside US (buyer have to pay shipping return crossborder in case of defect) Wacom on the other hand, has authorized seller locally who will honor warranty, but their price is about 1.1-1.5 higher than the US, and US price is already steep enough, so no. I have no desktop either (not a modern one anyway) so in the end, refub Wacom penabled device provide the best of both world; Wacom's stability, decent hardware that will last some years, light enough to get reasonable shipping cost, low price.

    About your concern about screen getting obsoleted along with hardware, as I said it's a matter of choice. OEM will still create pen display, and OEM will still create pen laptop/AIO. It's user's choice which they get, wether they already have a good system or not. I Doubt a dedicated graphic card and a faster cpu desktop would help me drawing better 2d art, just as I doubt studios that do heavy 3d works will start throwing out their Cintiq just because of a sleek looking non upgradeable Surface Studio. That AIO is mostly a luxury system either for people who love the newest and have spare money not unlike Apple fan, or people looking to invest into a long term system to use for years not minding aging hardware. It's also user choice to upgrade or not, as hardware is very good nowaday that a penabled tablet could last almost as long as a Cintiq (look at the Tecra M4). It's just the physiological response we get whenever we see newer shinier device come out, and if we can resist upgrading or not. Even Cintiq user might fail for it, just that Wacom refreshing circle is like 5 years instead of 1 like CPU circle.

    I believe the lack of outrage over the Surface Studio is because most people admire its sleekness but not gonna buy it .;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  9. okieiam

    okieiam Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Will Microsoft convince Hollywood to get away from Japaneses tech and switch back to them?
    From a technical sphere, I best guess for the Surface family is that, CAD and CAM designers and engineers may go with M$FT but other may not. As you see when Apple face the decline in education sector, the winner is not M$FT
     
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  10. LunaP

    LunaP Pen Pal - Newbie

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    This would explain why they opted to sell things separately vs bundle them like normal.

    Newest devices come with Limited nibs, no stand (excuse was that people buy their own which is sort of true but options are nice to have ) and they removed the wacom connector and are charging separately for it now.

    Biggest issue I've seen over the years is people coming fresh into art and wanting a wacom instantly vs learning to draw etc then complaining that its so high priced because they don't understand the difference it has to offer over other brands.

    I think the biggest reasoning behind why people complain about the pricing and bash it is because they're aware that its top tier, and thats not being demeaning to other brands, as Wacom has clearly been in the market longer than most on this.

    However I highly agree that QA and testing should be priority, as it seems like the QA team has been replaced by the consumer in more ways than none.

    I wasn't aware that MS pulled out of the market for that even though they keep trying to push it, though why they keep ignoring the requests to add an eraser to the back of the pen is idk. Drawing on a glass/glossy surface also takes time to get used to. I own the SP , SP3 and SP4 at work and mess with them to compare at times, friend has a Yiynova, and few other friends have Huion's ( diff models ) main issues I've seen there is either jitter, horrible pen calibration and response times. iPad is cute for doodles for me, though I have friends that have sold their 24HD and purchased an ipad pro to draw on the go, its all about what suits your style of needs, especially if you're on the go alot, a student, in the professional field, hobbyist, etc.

    Honestly I love art, and as a good artist you can literally make any tool work for you, however when you're in heavy workloads/projects etc, its nice to have a tool that helps streamline your workload vs make you work harder to achieve the same imo.

    I do hope things turn around for them.
     
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