Wacom EMR vs. N-Trig vs. Wacom AES

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Kumabjorn, Feb 22, 2015.

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  1. Mesosphere

    Mesosphere Geek. Senior Member

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    That is a lack of a precision being displayed there. The calibration (pen tip not lining up with cursor) and parallax (change in calibration with pen holding angle) are examples of inaccuracy. Sorry, the distinction is a common pet peeve with scientists =)

    [​IMG]

    PS. @Marty, this wasn't aimed at you (you had it right) =) I just thought it was a good opportunity to get things defined right. When describing pen performance this is often something people get wrong, which confuses the discussion. The two terms are treated as synonyms when they really are not.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
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  2. Marty

    Marty Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    While we are clarifying terms, we might also to add that "precision" (as defined above) is the positional tracking resolution of the digitizer and is directly proportional to the LPI (lines-per-inch) of the sensor board:

    For Wacom EMR: the LPI is 5000 for DTK digitizers (Intuos/Cintiq) and 500 for UD digitizers (Windows/Samsung tablets). For AES digitizers, we do not know the LPI, but for N-Trig is significantly lower, as demonstrated by the difficulty in tracking fine movements.​

    Now contrast this with the term "responsiveness", which I'll define as the temporal tracking resolution (or "tracking update speed" in layman's terms) of the digitizer. This is directly proportional to polling frequency of the firmware:

    For Wacom EMR: the polling frequency is 200Hz for DTK, and 133Hz for UD. For N-Trig DuoSense2, the polling frequency is 120Hz only when the pen is touching the screen. For hover, the polling frequency is much lower, which is what causes the trailing cursor that ron2k was referring to.​

    What we would like to know is the hover precision and responsiveness of the Wacom AES digitizer and see where it falls in between Wacom UD and N-Trig Duosense2.


    PS @Meso: You know, I think you and I should collaborate and write a scientific paper on measuring digitizer performance. Both standardized terminology and testing methodology are sorely needed in this expanding digitizer market, imo :D.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
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  3. Mesosphere

    Mesosphere Geek. Senior Member

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    I'm pretty sure the "LPI" for the projected capacitive techs (AES, N-trig) are well below 500 (the original iPhone had 50 lines total I think), but it isn't necessarily an apples to apples comparison. The pen/finger position can be determined more finely than the grid size via interpolation, but there are errors in that calculation which limit precision.

    I imagine a similar thing could happen in the EMR board controller, but the information content is different (the measurement methods are fundamentally different), so the interpolation errors will be different (better/worse). At 500 lines per inch though, it probably doesn't need to interpolate =)
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  4. Kumabjorn

    Kumabjorn ***** is back Senior Member

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    And thank you Mesosphere for clarifying.

    Yes, the lag on the SP3 is really obvious not nearly as much on the Wacom AES. Although hover distance is almost the same the SP3 allows you to move the pen further back before loosing contact with the digitizer, you are required to keep the TruPen in close proximity all the time if you want to see the hover cursor.

    Perhaps someone could now explain to me the significance for this? I completely fail to see how this could be important in actual usage, unless you like to be mesmerized by a moving hover cursor. Once you put pen to screen the cursor is at the tip of the pen, unlike Wacom EMR where there might be visible drift, resulting in pushing say Maximize window instead of Close window in legacy desktop apps.
     
  5. thatcomicsguy

    thatcomicsguy Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    I don't know how much it would bug me, since I've not tried it, but I know that I use the "Hover Click" feature with my Wacom stylus all the time to access a right click without touching the screen. On Windows 7, some of the targets I interact with can be fairly small, so not having full control over the cursor position I could see being pretty annoying.

    In any case, (not to dump on you), but saying, "What do you need it for anyway?" is a lot like that annoying Apple user insisting people didn't need a second mouse button or a USB port or whatever. You probably don't want to be that person. :)

    The fact of the matter is that N-Trig makes a half-baked stylus tech, (well, perhaps 80% baked at this point), and rather than apologist users, they need encouragement to up their game that last little bit.

    Wacom might just be there now. Their "Game" was only ever at around 90% with edge accuracy being flaky since forever. I really look forward to trying their AES tech.
     
  6. Kumabjorn

    Kumabjorn ***** is back Senior Member

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    No, I don't want to be the penabled version of an Apple fanboi, I was just earnestly confused, but that is down to my own lack of experience, especially when using a tablet for art. But since both N-Trig and Wacom AES have such limited hover distance would you still use that for hover clicks?
     
  7. jedah

    jedah Pen Pal - Newbie

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    This seems to be true. I have an Ativ 500t, and the accuracy seems better than the Surface Pro 2 and Thinkpad Yoga I tried in the store. Paralax is minimal no matter how I tilt the stylus, and in the few times I've tried, I can write on the side and top edges (never tried bottom since all my apps are desktop and the toolbar is blocking the bottom all the time). There is occasional lag between cursor and stylus, but I attribute that more to the Clovertrail processor than Wacom.
     
  8. Marty

    Marty Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    In my SP3 review, I give a pretty detailed explanation on how lack of hover precision makes it extremely unreliable for manipulating small object handles in graphics programs, such as Illustrator. For many graphic artists, this is a complete deal breaker.

    For traditional artists, wazzup explains how it is extremely difficult to break up long lines into shorter strokes, due to the unreliable hover cursor. What this means essentially, is that creating precise line art is cumbersome and takes much longer.

    The need for hover precision/responsiveness is generally not well understood (and consequently downplayed :vbfrown:), but hopefully the above links will clarify why it is crucial to fluid and reliable pen-based content creation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
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  9. ron2k_1

    ron2k_1 calibuchi Senior Member

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    @Kumabjorn

    To simplify things as easy as I can think of. On Fresh Paint, OneNote or Journal:
    1. Draw a line relatively with fast stroke

    2. Try connect that line with another stroke seamlessly (that is, no discernable break in continuity between the 2 lines).

    With EMR is relatively easy. On my SP3 you have to zoom in and connect both lines very carefully and slowly to make a fluid connectionwith no breaks. It's AES the same case?

    Swiped from my Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk
     
  10. Precurve

    Precurve Scribbler - Standard Member

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    IMO this is easy (encore 8). and i tried your test across multiple machines. Your mileage may vary.

    After a month of acclimation I am beginning to prefer AES to my penabled pc or Cintiq in many ways. Specifically:
    - accuracy & precision, edge accuracy and parallax are so much better. It is distracting to use the pro pens to me now. I have a custom toolbar with very tiny buttons docked to the top of my screen. I cant use this toolbar with penabled tech. I cant get to the corner buttons.

    - Predictable pressure: in tests I've run with extreme pens (1-1000 pixel MS5 G-pen) I can produce better transition results with AES.

    On your stroke test the hover of the penabled pens help - but so does the greater parallax (and space between glass surface and pixels). We've just become used to that. Its deep in muscle memory so i have to stop and make a more objective comparison.

    The AES pen is already better for me for handwriting and it feels like it takes less attention (cognitive overhead ) for drawing since the mark just goes where the tip is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
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