Wacom Announcment Coming Soon?

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by darkmagistric, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. darkmagistric

    darkmagistric Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    The backwards compatibility should be a relatively simple matter of just rigging the pens to operate at the same frequency. As is all the current and past N-trig pens...to my knowledge... are all backwards compatible. From the Slate 500 to Pro 4....all the actual digitizer advancement's over the years have been on the tablets end with the controller chips. Like if I use the Pro 4 pen....while I can use it on the Slate 500....the nib assembly aside, it would operate the same as the Slate 500's stock pen.

    This is just conjecture on my part......but lets say Microsoft puts out a newer Pro 5 Pen with 2048 levels of Pressure, Tilt Control, and 1 gram of Initial Activation Force. However the Wacom Gen 13 Pens offer up 4096 levels of pressure, Tilt & Rotation, and 0.03 grams of Initial Activation Force. The Gen 13 & Pro 5 pens would operate at the same frequencies so they are interchangeable, but the Wacom Pen would operate at the Pro 5 Pens level when used on a Pro 5.....and conversely the Pro 5 would work like a Gen 13 Pen on any Gen 13 compatible Tablet PC. Admittedly that scenario would paint the lesser spec pen directly inferior....but I highly suspect that when the Pro 5 Pen and Gen 13 Pens do hit.....they will be very similar, if not the same outright specs.
     
  2. siddhartth

    siddhartth Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Correct me if i am wrong.
    The pressure level and IAF are a function of Pen right? Pen assembly?

    But sampling rate is a function of the digitizer?

    Sampling rate and IAF is what notetakers are concerned about for Artists pressure levels are important.

    What i want from Surface pro 5 is a digitizer improvement which samples at 240 Hz, which is what wacom is also promising. And of course a pen as well made and integrated as Apple pencil. Both AES and NTrig are the same technology as apple pencil.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  3. darkmagistric

    darkmagistric Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    The Pressure sensors are in the pen....but the Controller Chip/Digitizer relays the data collected by the pen into creating the actual on-screen pressure. (All things in Tandem) However the actual pressure levels is just a number really....the Drivers, and Programed Pressure curve, and IAF make massive pressure jumps redundant. The human eye can not discerne the minute differences anywhere in the 2048 or 4096 levels range...honestly I've been jumping back and forth between 256 Tablet PCs and 2048 Cinitqs over the years....and the brush work all looks the same to me. Despite how well the Apple Pencil works....doesn't anyone find it odd that Apple has never released a Pressure Sensitivity Spec for it? Every other Pen spec they have....except for pressure.....which is usually the biggest selling point with digitial pens. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Apple Pencil itself was only set for 256 levels of pressure.....The Dense digitizer grid, artificially induced super low IAF, and high polling frequency more then compensate.

    Now IAF is technically on both the Pen & The Digitizer. The digitizer dictates at what pressure level to start activating, however there is a physical component to this in the Nib Assembly. This has been a common occurrence on Wacom EMR systems over the many years because of the different nibs, and assemblies. If memory serves the IAF on the basic EMR Tablet PCs is around 3 (Cintiqs are 1), however some pens because of their physical construction allow the nib to recess into the pen easier then that nib would on other pens.....this sort of creates the feeling that the IAF is much lower like 1-2. The Digitizer is still rigged to start activating at 3....but the physical pen assembly is more or less tricking to digitizer to register a physical IAF 1-2 as the digital IAF 3.
     
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  4. Steve S

    Steve S Pen Pro - Senior Member Super Moderator

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    <<...As is all the current and past N-trig pens...to my knowledge... are all backwards compatible...>>

    ...An historical note: The first production N-trig pens, as used on the Dell Latitude XT and XT2 (and a couple of other machines), were passive EMR pens. They are not compatible with the current DuoSense system (if that's what Microsoft still calls it). N-trig's active pens, as you say, are backward compatible starting from the time of the HP Slate 500.

    <<...all the actual digitizer advancement's over the years have been on the tablets end with the controller chips...>>

    ...Not true, and I have some of the prototypes to prove it. Sometime around the time of the Fujistu T580, N-trig began to make a series of subtle improvements to their DuoSense pens. I think their primary focus was to reduce the "clanky" mechanical noise that the pens made while inking, but they were also sensitive to users criticisms about IAF. That, too, was subtly improved. At least four or more prototype pens were developed that experimented with mechanical improvements (including IAF) and different nib materials. The pen that debuted with their DuoSense 2 system included these improvements. After they were bought out, Microsoft continued to improve the pen's mechanical characteristics, first with the Pro 3 pen and today with the current Pro 4 pen...
     
  5. siddhartth

    siddhartth Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I am still confused about how does Apple penciil achieve this. it happened with my surface pen too, it lasted 30 minutes but the experience was great. I do not know if it was the fault of the pen nib assembly on the digitiser became more sensitive. For me 0gramweight IAF is the most important attraction of Apple pencil and then comes 240 Hz polling rate.
    Both the IAF on my Surface Pen and span is kinda high. also, the wobbly nib of EMR pens frustrates me that loose clicky receding of nib is very annoying. Since It was my first & last Note device So, I do not care for EMR anymore.

    Is the penal nib So tight that the pressure coil remains always a bit compressed? But I do care about AES & NTRig.
     
  6. Marty

    Marty Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    Not all EMR nibs are like this.

    I use flex nibs on my Cintiq 22 (coupled with Nanovid AG screen protector).

    The nib fits snugly (no "wobble") and does not "recede" before activating the IAF, which is extremely low (lower than Apple Pencil in my testing in Procreate).

    The flex nibs also provide surface friction similar to using softer graphite on paper, which provides a very pleasant drawing sensation.

    So I would recommend trying various Wacom pens and nibs before writing off EMR entirely...
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  7. siddhartth

    siddhartth Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I asked around if flex nibs will be compatible with my Spent. Most people said no. I m never going to buy A Cintiq for note taking. So, EMR flex nibs are Nott usefull to me in the only one EMR device I ever owned. Note 3 spen only accepts the nibs that come with spen. It has 1 plastic and one rubbery. But none of them is satisfying when IAF is considered. I not going to buy note devices now that Surface line has come to India.
     
  8. Marty

    Marty Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    But isn't this thread about a possible Cintiq Companion 3? The flex nibs would work on that.

    If Wacom did release a sleek form-factor revision to the CC line, I believe for many professionals, it would also be a serious Surface Pro competitor.
     
  9. siddhartth

    siddhartth Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    they will not and they kind of have already released something like that. Penabled non-cintiq displays. http://www.wacom.com/en-us/enterprise/business-solutions/hardware/pen-displays

    Anyways i just realised i am offtopic.:)
     
  10. darkmagistric

    darkmagistric Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I was referring to the advancements with the actual digitizer in the tablet, not mechanical changes to the pens nib assembly. From Earlier Duo Senses , Slate 500, to Vaio Pens, Pro 3/Pro 4 Pens....Despite different Nib designs, those are all backwards compatible....but the digitizer advancements like Higher Pressure Levels, better tracking, Hover speed, those advancements are all on the tablets end, not the pen.
     
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