Wacom AES caught up to Apple pencil? HP rechargeable pen supports 240 Hz report rate and tilt

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by ATIVQ, Oct 5, 2018.

  1. stoneseeker

    stoneseeker Animator and Art Director Senior Member

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    Would be pretty great if the new Wacom AES tech was as good as the EMR pro stuff, but what would Wacom gain by leveling the playing field with their own pro line? No way the IAF and jitters are going to match the buttery smooth feels of EMR pro anytime soon, especially if its Wacom built. They would be sounding the death toll on their own overpriced MSP and Cintiq line to bring it to "EMR killing" level. It would be a pleasant surprise if it compared favorably though!
     
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  2. Steve B

    Steve B Moderator Moderator

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    What does the polling rate actually represent, functionally, in terms of user experience? How much the pen input lags behind the pen tip? Would this help with vectoring and such?

    IAF and pressure curve have seemed much more important to user experience, IMO, after one gets past a certain basic polling rate.
     
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  3. bloodycape

    bloodycape confused Senior Member

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    I already have way too many pens(is 4 considered way to many?), but that dell one has me a bit interested. I wonder how it works on the Surface Pro 5.
     
  4. stoneseeker

    stoneseeker Animator and Art Director Senior Member

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    IAF is certainly important for lighter strokes and long drawings sessions, but isn't polling rates a bigger deal than pressure curve after around 2000 lvls or so? I feel like pressure levels is now just marketing jargon (I can barely distinguish the pressure levels from my 22HD and my T902) but I can really tell the polling rate on my t902 EMR vs. the duo 13 Ntrig. At least I always assumed it was polling rate. Response time seems so fast on EMR, but maybe its something else that makes it "feel" more responsive to fast strokes, but I always though that polling rates were the felt difference.
     
  5. ATIVQ

    ATIVQ V⅁O⅄ Senior Member

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    More accurate strokes, less hardware smoothing. Ask people about gaming mice. For slow motions it doesn't matter much but when you get to fast motions you can easily see a curve turn into a polygon. Check out the UFOtest website for a visual analogy.

    This is really up to the OS. Input polling rate has been higher than display refresh rate for decades. The minimum input lag is 1 frame if the pen and display are synced, and 2 frames if they're not. Apple reached the 2-frame minimum and runs its iPad Pro display at 120Hz for a decent 17ms lag.

    With my incredible sample size of one I found that I can't control pressure in the single-gram-force level and since the best pens operate between 1 and 300 grams-force that means when you're past 512 levels of pressure you've already hit (my) peak human precision. On that same thread I showed that even at 240Hz pens are still not subpixel-accurate at fast strokes (but they're pretty darn close) so bumping the polling rate to 480Hz and even higher would still benefit artists who do fast strokes. And I can (anecdotally) easily tell the difference between a circle drawn with 133Hz polling and 240Hz polling.
     
  6. Steve B

    Steve B Moderator Moderator

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    Pardon me-I wasn’t being clear. My point wasn’t that pressure levels are so important. I agree, that’s just marketing now. I meant pressure curves, which aren’t always manageable on every device, depending on drivers and such.
     
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  7. doobiedoobiedum

    doobiedoobiedum Scribbler - Standard Member

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    1) Apple won't be able to limit the Pencil to iPads anymore as windows will have tech as good as the pencil on their laptops and cheaper in price. They waited till Jobs died before developing a stylus - we might finally start seeing Pencil support on iMacs.
    2) We might also see a patent case if Wacom's developments are too close, I remember seeing the patent drawings for the pencil and Apple tend to fight copyright quite vigorously. Apple would survive the costs of such a case better.

    Other than that, I'm all for innovation and development. AES has different strengths as compared to EMR and Apple's version is top notch. I think this will be interesting for the future of both Wacom and Apple in different ways, we've all on these forums wanted Wacom to be pushed to innovate and have lower prices for the best tech.
    "Buttery smooth but inaccurate around the edges EMR 1" was never something I was a fan of and I don't know if the new pen will be as good as the pencil but improvements at lower price are good for customers. As for the future of EMR - wasn't EMR 2 (what we have now) developed because of the development and purchase of ntrig to create the developments / improvements in AES? If AES had never appeared and been adopted across the market, I'm pretty certain Wacom would have sat on their hands and kept churning out the old EMR tablets and technology while keeping their very best for super expensive Cintiqs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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  8. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    Polling rate was never the problem of AES, nor lack of tilt. I'm glad that it's getting tilt but not because I personally use it.

    None of these things fix the problem of AES vs EMR. EMR's advantage is intrinsic to the fact that it has two distinct hardware for pen and touch. As long as AES needs that few additional milliseconds to determine if you are touching down with the pen or fingers, EMR has the advantage in pen feel. 240Hz polling rate don't do nothing for that.

    As for 240Hz polling rate that all of the sudden became a thing when Apple arbitraily came upon that number by doubling their touch digitizer's polling rate. it's the same diminishing return marketing oneupmanship nonsense that pressure levels over 256 levels fall under. In fact, I'd argue over 133Hz and 256 lvls are just adding to noise instead of useful signal.

    Let's just say that I can make much more nuanced lines with 133Hz 256lvls UD EMR pen with Clip Studio Paint than 240Hz 1000+ lvls of Apple Pencil in iPad Pro 12.9 with Clip Studio Paint.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  9. ATIVQ

    ATIVQ V⅁O⅄ Senior Member

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    I suggest you test that. Drawing moderately fast a large circle at 133Hz with no smoothing results in a very pointy circle.

    Naturally, polling isn't everything. Both first-gen UD and first-gen DuoSense had 133Hz polling, but they were not nearly the same. UD is better because it has better activation force (3 grams vs 14 grams), better position accuracy (±0.5mm at most angles vs ±0.4mm only when pen is held vertically), better nibs (soft vs hard), and most importantly better linearity (less "wobble"/"jitter"/"waviness").

    Without knowing all the information, we can't be sure. But the new AES might actually be better than EMR. We'll see.
     
  10. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    You can't turn off smoothing cimpletely in most modern art apps so 133Hz at no smoothing is a moot experiment.

    Also, I'll bet that DuoSense2 aint 133Hz. It's probably 120Hz. OG DuoSense was likely 60Hz (which was why it suffered from severe vectoring). Wacom UD has wacky 133Hz number because it was probably tied to old serial bus speed of 33Hz or 66Hz. Modern pro cap dual role digitizers seems tied to screen refresh instead. Thats why Apple Pencil is 240Hz (4x OG 12.9 screen refresh).

    In any case, you seem to be ignoring the main advantafe of EMR to all these pro cap dual role digitizers. It never confuses pen for finger. And because it can immediately tell when pen touches down, it has smoother pen handling in positional data, pressure variations, and palm rejection.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018 at 1:03 AM
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