Vegas baby, 2019 (CES)

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Kumabjorn, Jan 4, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Shizaru

    Shizaru Scribbler - Standard Member

    Messages:
    556
    Likes Received:
    392
    Trophy Points:
    76
    That's good to know...do you happen to know if this issue applies to the USB-C versions?

    I have one of these...

    [​IMG]

    and it gets insanely hot imho. I don't leave it in a machine but I do use it to move big files and folders, as well as backing up a 64GB phone. Under those conditions it gets bloody hot. I try not to use it too often because of the heat issue, and I don't trust it enough for anything vital.
     
  2. Steve S

    Steve S Pen Pro - Senior Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    8,126
    Likes Received:
    3,636
    Trophy Points:
    331
    <<...do you happen to know if this issue applies to the USB-C versions?..>>

    @Shizaru : My observation actually applies to all high-speed memory devices. Ever felt a microSD card (especially the premium cards with higher read / write speeds) after a significant data write operation? Your comment about your SanDisk thumb drive is completely typical!

    As for whether these devices are reliable or not, I would guess that they will perform OK as long as you do not subject them to prolonged operation at high temperatures. That is, periodic writes or reads for the purpose of file transfers should be OK. Using the device as a "scratch drive" for a long period of time with many reads and writes in a short period of time, not so OK. And @thatcomicsguy 's policy of retiring the drive after about two years of use is probably prudent.

    For perspective, consider that the high speed RAM in your desktop computer has heat sinks attached to it and is actively cooled by a fan. It should come as no surprise that high-speed thumb drives might be very sensitive to their thermal conditions...

    PS: If you've ever looked closely at external SSD enclosures, you'll find that many of them have vent holes and / or have thermal pads between the flash chips and the (metal) enclosure. That should tell us all something...
     
    Shizaru and thatcomicsguy like this.
  3. Marty

    Marty Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    3,274
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Interesting, I've read the contradictory articles on this. For example, heat annealing NAND memory supposedly improves the cell endurance:
    However, more recent enterprise usage studies suggest that higher operating temperatures decrease the MTBF:

    I wonder if the discrepancy is caused by the industry transition from SLC/MLC to TLC and now QLC memory states, which may be more susceptible to heat.

    Maybe you guys who know more on the subject could shed some light on the physics of the matter?
     
    thatcomicsguy and Shizaru like this.
  4. Shizaru

    Shizaru Scribbler - Standard Member

    Messages:
    556
    Likes Received:
    392
    Trophy Points:
    76
    That pretty much confirms my thoughts on it. And yes I am very aware of the temps high-speed microSD cards reach. I tend not to use them in the same way though for the most part anyway. That USB-C thumb drive is something else though, so I'm much more cautious with it. I abuse the hell out of some of my regular old USB3 thumb drives, which can get pretty hot. They don't seem as bad to me though.

    I guess the best thing is to follow proper backup procedures like we all should. I won't mention my current NAS woes. :(

    Thanks for your feedback.
     
    thatcomicsguy likes this.
  5. Shizaru

    Shizaru Scribbler - Standard Member

    Messages:
    556
    Likes Received:
    392
    Trophy Points:
    76
    That's above my pay grade unfortunately. I would also be interested to see that information especially as we are becoming so much more reliant on these sorts of storage technologies. There's something comforting about good old mechanical spinning rust. Even if there are lots of moving parts just itching to fail at the worst possible moment. At least you get some warning most of the time which is cool if you don't ignore the signs.
     
    thatcomicsguy likes this.
  6. Steve S

    Steve S Pen Pro - Senior Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    8,126
    Likes Received:
    3,636
    Trophy Points:
    331
    <<...Maybe you guys who know more on the subject could shed some light on the physics of the matter?..>>

    ...I wasn't going to continue this sidebar discussion, but since you ask... If member TCassidy is still around, he is well qualified to talk about solid state memory technology.

    <<...I would also be interested to see that information especially as we are becoming so much more reliant on these sorts of storage technologies...>>

    ...Another side note. I've been looking into reliable methods of archival storage for a couple of years. I've looked at tape cassettes, optical disks (including so-called "archival" optical disks), conventional disk drives of various brands and SSDs. Every one of these storage technologies seems to have issues: print-through, lubricant loss, disk "rash," charge loss, thermal and random flipping of bits... There doesn't appear to be any truly long-lasting archival storage technology for digital data. Ironically, my research suggests that a good quality conventional disk drive might be the best alternative...!
     
    Marty likes this.
  7. Shizaru

    Shizaru Scribbler - Standard Member

    Messages:
    556
    Likes Received:
    392
    Trophy Points:
    76
    @Steve S I came to the same conclusion and it's still more cost effective right now. I run some Synology NAS drives in RAID 5 with BTRFS to ward off bit rot. My primary machine had a couple of disks (4TB RED WD's) throwing bad sectors, so I brought a couple of Seagate 6TB IronWolfs to replace them. But my array degraded during the recovery. Still looking for a way to recover the system without a full rebuild. I have all my data backed up on a second server fortunately.

    In my experience tape is pretty stable provided it's stored correctly and you roll them from time to time. My experience is based on archived analogue multi-track 2" masters using Ampex GM 456 though. I'm not sure about the performance for digital data? I'm old an out of the game now and besides MT recording is digital as well these days. Ampex Grandmaster 456 was pretty stable stretch and print through wise, provided you treated it correctly. I'm not sure what advances they have made with respect to computer tape storage? Speed is probably still an issue using tape as opposed to Disks and SSD's.

    At least if you have a couple of backups minimum one should remain usable, and there is also the chance that recovery can be made between two failures if things go really bad. As long as you can access the sectors some how and join things back together.

    I can't see us returning to hemp paper or stone tablets any time soon.
     
  8. thatcomicsguy

    thatcomicsguy Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,291
    Likes Received:
    2,346
    Trophy Points:
    231
    After looking at all the different methods for saving files which have come and gone over the years, my own conclusion is that archiving works best when you treat it like DNA; one of the best tested and proven methods for keeping data alive (literally!) for millennia. -Keep on reproducing regularly at short intervals with the best model available.

    I still have files from my old Apple II clatterbox, originally saved on 5.24" floppy diskettes. They live on some sub-sub-sub folder which keeps getting spun along with everything else in the yearly backup cycle to whatever standard media is currently popular. I also have all the low-resolution pics I took on my first little digital camera!

    If you die, so does your data.

    The so-called, "Cloud" means that some corporate agency takes care of that for you, but it also means they can search it without your consent. I like to do it myself.
     
    Shizaru likes this.
  9. Marty

    Marty Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    3,274
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Since CES is over, I figure it's ok to keep OTing this tread. Sorry @Kumabjorn, your thread has been hijacked by data hoarders! :p

    You guys know the old archivist's saying, "data doesn't live unless it's in 3 places":
    • original - just a ghost, pretty much non-existent...
    • 1st backup (onsite) - on deathrow, could go at any moment...
    • 2nd backup (offsite) - it's alive! but accidents could happen...
    • 3rd backup (bunker) - grizzled warrior, will take some force to kill this guy ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
    Azzart and Shizaru like this.
  10. thatcomicsguy

    thatcomicsguy Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,291
    Likes Received:
    2,346
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Good grief!

    I did some reading on SanDisk's website to try to work out what kind of hardware release schedule they were on. Much to my surprise, I learned that they were bought by Western Digital back in September of 2016 for around 18 billion dollars. Yowza! I'm clearly not in the loop with these things.

    Investors saw it as an attempt for WD to stay relevant in a market rapidly moving away from spinning disk technology, and largely a smart strategy. But one comment noted that it was done not with cash on hand, but with a heeeuge big bank loan and thus seemed like a Hail Mary. Hopefully the corporate culture around SanDisk doesn't devolve and affect their product line. 'Cuz that can happen. I don't have too many bits and pieces floating around in my life that I enjoy owning in a "Check out this marvelous bit of engineering glory!" kind of way. SanDisk USB sticks were one of them.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page