Two New Laptops: Galaxy Book Ion & Flex still no SGB12 update

Discussion in 'Samsung' started by DRTigerlilly, Oct 29, 2019.

  1. Steve B

    Steve B Moderator Moderator

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    Oh, IMO, we have endlessly more options than we did 10 years ago in this forum. Back then, you had to pay 3000$ for every penabled device, or buy it second hand. And each brand only had one or two, which were top of the line stuff. Now, there are pens all over the place. Of course, they are of greatly varying quality, but still... way, waaaaaayyyyy more options than there used to be.

    Even for artists, there are endlessly more off brand, not Wacom, screen devices that are infinitely cheaper than old devices used to be. And their pen tech is pretty good too!

    The issue is that there's far more subpar stuff than there used to be as well. IMO, it used to be that if you bought a penabled device the pen tech was very good. The end. Your options were very very limited, and very expensive, but atleast the pen always worked well. Now, there are pens everywhere, but many are only Ok. But we've also gotten past the terrible early days of Ntrig and AES, when every non-Wacom EMR pen sucked.

    So, while things aren't perfect, I think there's been an immense amount of growth in the penabled market.
     
  2. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I agree with this assessment. And I think two companies are primarily responsible for this "slide toward mediocrity', Samsung and Apple.
    Perhaps given market forces a better way to put it would be a move to the median.

    Which is more than a bit ironic given that the S Pen and the Pencil 2 are among the better in the market, though maybe not Intous dedicated device level.

    The Samsung Galaxy Note especially I think has driven this, primarily because it has brought far more casual users around to the usefulness of a stylus. Observationally most users I've seen do use the pen, but not as frequently or extensively as those of us here.

    Apple belongs in this discussion as well as I think a significant portion of iPad users that bought a pencil, did so primarily because most importantly it's an Apple branded product and thus by definition is "valid".

    Please don't interpret that as a knock against apple users. It's just a recognition of user behavior and market forces. I cite as anecdotal evidence for this the number of accessory vendors that have told us it is totally worth the licensing fees involved to get that "made for iPad/iPhone" sticker on the box.
     
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  3. thatcomicsguy

    thatcomicsguy Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well.., I only consider systems where you can draw a reliably straight line, so that narrows it down to EMR. When I narrow it down further by insisting on a screen approximating at least the square inches provided by a sheet of copier paper.., the choices can be counted on one hand. And it goes without saying that if it can't run full Photoshop, it doesn't count.

    If you take Samsung's 2-in-1 model off the map, the map is empty, (except for the odd $5000 USD unicorn, as discussed in another thread).

    That's growth for sure, (three choices beyond the lone Tecra M4, and reliable ones at that), but not phenomenal growth, in my rarefied book of snooty opinions.

    Where the real growth explosion has happened is in the Cintiq clone market! Ever since Yinova first entered the scene, there have been significant updates and improvements across a half dozen OEMs every year. There are buckets of choices now for decent, affordable systems. Even Wacom has addressed this trend by offering their econo 16" version.
     
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  4. DRTigerlilly

    DRTigerlilly Tablet Lead Mod (Retired) Super Moderator

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    I actually blame Microsoft for the mediocrity their insistence that they own their pen tech and pushing Ntrig which otherwise would have likely slid into obscurity pushed Wacom to switch to the cheaper but inferior AES.

    For all its improvements, Microsoft Pen/Ntrig is still not as good as Wacom EMR.

    Sent from my SM-N9600 using Tapatalk
     
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  5. Steve B

    Steve B Moderator Moderator

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    I totally agree with you on this DRTigerlilly. I wouldn't blame Samsung nor Apple, both of whom provide the best pen tech of their type. It's clearly MS who has lowered the bar with Ntrig, which allowed AES to get a foothold as a comparable pen tech for other vendors to use. If all pen tech was good as the spen or the Pencil, we'd be golden.
     
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  6. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I have a question for the "pen experts" here. I can perceive differences between the various pen technologies, but I have trouble declaring one qualitatively better than the others.

    I'm 100% certain it's down to how i use a pen which is 95% either marking up an existing document or perhaps sketching a rough engineering diagram now and then.

    I'd appreciate any additional information on how to better judge the various tech and any outstanding pro's and con's

    FWIW based on the above, if I had to pick a personal favorite it would be Samsung's S-Pen with Apple's Pencil 2 in second place.
     
  7. Steve B

    Steve B Moderator Moderator

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    Your assessment is also my assessment.

    It used to be that EMR tech (s-pen) had the most responsive pressure curve and the least diagonal jitter (which is still true), but that it also suffered from edge drift inaccuracies. With the spen, that's no longer the case. Accuracy is superb pretty much everywhere, something I've been very impressed with on this machine-- perhaps with a tiny bit of drift deep in the corners on the edge of screen. It also used to be a knock against it that you only got tilt on the high-end artist tablet EMR stuff (Cintiqs and such), but that's also no longer the case. It also used to be a knock against it that there was a lot of lag with the ink following the pen input like a tail, but that's also been fixed. So, it's hard to think of a negative for this pen tech. You even get a hovering, responsive cursor that you can hover-click with if you want-- something the Apple Pencil can't provide. You can also get a variety of textured nibs, which is really lovely, and a big advantage point to me. You also never need a battery. There's a lot to like about EMR and almost nothing that I can think of to dislike.

    The issue is that almost no one uses it because it's more expensive to include. So we only get it in Samsung Android tablets, Samsung Chromebooks, these few Samsung Windows laptops, and an occasional other vendor (like Acer or HP-- which gives me hope!!! because it means companies could be using it if they thought there was a market for it). It's more expensive to include and requires more battery power from the device (since the pen doesn't provide any) and it makes the device a tiny itsy bit thicker, and that means it's slowly getting reserved for "artists" only type machines, or the general Samsung device. Thank god for Samsung. Lordy.

    The Apple pencil is, to me, the clear #2. It is accurate edge to edge, and because of the way they're building their machine it's incredibly responsive with very little lag. Tilt works great too. There's no cursor, but it doesn't seem to matter much because the pen is so accurate. It used to be that you didn't have an eraser button, but that's no longer really a knock against it with the gen 2 pens. I think some folks dont care for the blunt tip, the lack of texture, and the tappity-tappity of using the pen. It's not a very soft tip. But in terms of accuracy and speed and tilt, the pencils are great. I also think Apple was very clever to find a way to not require a battery by charging inductively, because this has always bugged the hell out of me with AES and N-trig pens.

    All the other stuff- AES 2 in the Yogas, Ntrig in the Surface line, etc. are average fine pens for writing, but generally have a lot more wobble, hooks, and such. I can and do use them, but don't care for them as much. But perhaps for occasional marking up they'd be totally adequate-- particularly if the rest of the machine was just what you wanted. They all also require batteries, or are rechargeable and require a dongle and cord. However, all of them are very accurate everywhere on the screen, which is nice. That used to be a real selling point versus EMR, but it's not really so anymore because Samsung and Wacom uped the game. Still, better to be accurrate than not. And re: batteries-- atleast the Yogas have figured out how to make the auto-charging silo for the tiny pen. That's a big selling point to me.

    If, as has been said many times, the Surface line had EMR there would be no conversation about how good the devices were. To me, it's very clearly the king of pen tech. The issue is that very few devices have it, so you're limited in terms of the complete package. That's partly why the Apple Pencil is so desirable- the overall package is excellent, as well as the pen tech.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
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  8. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    @Steve B
    Thanks so much for that!. Very informative especially to a non pro like me. I get asked that question by customers now and then and least I can partially respond with " I can't answer directly, but I've been told by people with far more expertise than me...":)

    PS: And back to specifically the thread topic. We just started testing our sample unit this morning and at my request my guys started with the display.
    True it's not 4k but it already is looking like one of the better FHD range displays we have tested.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  9. DRTigerlilly

    DRTigerlilly Tablet Lead Mod (Retired) Super Moderator

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    I will venture to say I ink exclusively and it's a far superior experience to the other technologies.

    It is the closest to pen on paper feel, smooth, buttery, effortless.

    I too thank the Gods that Samsung has stuck with the technology and hope they continue to do so.

    I also agree that if the Surface had stayed with EMR that was used in the SP1 and SP2 devices, it would make it even more the device to beat... lack of repairability aside.

    Sent from my SM-N9600 using Tapatalk
     
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  10. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    FWIW and I have no way to speak to the veracity of the claim but one of my engineers (our pen expert) asked MS awhile ago why N-Trig? The response was that cost was part of it, but also that it was the most effective to integrate with PixelSense which is the touch hardware.

    PS: She's a huge S-Pen advocate
     
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