Discussion in 'Lenovo (IBM)' started by testplayer, Feb 28, 2016.
Let's agree to disagree.
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Back then I had a Portege M400 with win 7 attached to a Dell 22" multitouch display: I can assure you using the display was an awful and useless experience until I upgraded to windows 8.
"Dell 22" multitouch display" I'm assuming that display was touch only and no pen/active digitizer support. If so that is an apples to oranges comparison. I've a Fujitsu t904 multitouch and pen convertible that I've Win7 loaded on it and I find it works fine (let alone a literal dozen active digitizer screen only core and core 2 machines with Win7). When I first got it I did load Win8.1 on it for use for a little while but found Win7 a better experience with how I use it. The issue with Win8.1 on a pure nonconvertible like the P70 or even a convertible like the t904 if often used as a laptop is that the OS UI (User Interface) is too touch centric and pen isn't treated the same as touch and when one has access to a proper pen or pointer device like a touchpad having to switch to finger to do those things Win8 wants done with touch is a pain. That is why most people seem to hate Win8. I actual like Win8.1 as long as it is on the right type of machine. I've also 2 Asus Note 8's (pen and multitouch 8" tablets) one with Win8.1 and one with Win10 (that second I got for $50 off Ebay as a potential spare parts machine but it ended up actually working fine) and with that pure tablet form factor I actually find Win8.1 better. Finally I'm not sure if Win8.1 on the P70 is even properly supported by Lenovo (driver wise and such). That said/written if it was I would be less inclined to argue against Win8.1 if supported than Win10.
My issue and reason against Win10 is a different one. Win8.1 is still a relatively mature OS and the last OS still mostly treated by Microsoft as an OS more so than a service. Win10 though is essentially for Microsoft a means to sell services (for clarity as in how TV sells eyeballs to advertisers not as in MS selling services directly to end users) hence them not only giving it for free but even stealthily forcing it installed on some computers through badly labeled service packs. (If one doesn't/didn't question the end user trade off with getting a "free" upgrade vs their previous business model then you were/are a fool.) Since it is now more of service there are issues. I'm not in the mood to properly go through this but here is an article that goes over some of what I mean not too poorly. I know personally of and have seen and still deal (an acquaintance's machines used when weekly podcasting now has an audio playback hiccup) with Win10 having borked stuff in some contexts with other's machines and also just look though these forums and you will find reports of Win10s behavior causing issues. I can go on in more detail and list more direct examples but I've already done more here than I should've had to.
Also again I'm not saying Win10 is all bad I even advised to and installed it on my father's desktop but for my mother I conversely decided it best she stick with Win7 on her laptop. It is all about context and how a user uses their machine both in the way they operated it and for what end output. The P70 is a machine for serious work and content creation and if someone is going to want to use it that way they want something they know "just works" as in the OS is just a means to get to the software they use to make stuff with and the less time mucking with it the better. That means no forced restarts for updates at inopportune times, no having to undo bad forced driver updates, no having to dealing with sudden UI modifications because MS feels it is the next "in" thing since it isn't just service packs but even the whole OS is now open to be modified by updates.
I serious shouldn't have had to have written all that and I'm not going to waste anymore of my time explaining what should have already been understood and researched. I just wanted to prevent someone that spent quite a decent amount of money on what will hopefully be a great machine used hopefully to create great art work from wasting their time and running into problems because of Win10 and bad unthought-out nor researched "advise." As far as touch UI in and of itself that though is definitely a matter of opinion and I honest would not advise against trying Win8.1 if it was an option for the sake of one making their own opinion. Although I wouldn't outright advice it either as the whole OS backup then upgrade then potential reinstall of the old backup in the end could just be a time consuming mess. If one already knows they're comfortable with Win7 and pen and that is how they plan to use it than why muck about in Win8.1's UI for potentially a few gimmicky touch features?
I use to be like that. Used Win 2000 instead of XP for years so the OS can "get out of the way". But I honestly can't go back to Win 7 now because the feature advancements of Windows since then is too much to give up.
BTW, I never log into Microsoft account in Windows 10 unless I'm buying an app or something. I have local accounts on the computer that is not attached to MS accounts. So I don't get bugged by "the cloud".
If Win10 was treated mainly just as an OS that would be fine and I'm not against Win8.1 over Win7 on a production device but feel that Win8.1's UI is awkward on a pure laptop form-factor. As for serious work though Microsoft's policy changes with Win10 make it too risky, full stop. That you "never log into Microsoft account" doesn't change their update policy and you have to directly disable the system service for updates to do that. The update policy is what has turned that OS into a potential game of Russian roulette with ones work and productivity. I'm not against Win10 on a mainly consumption device (again I do have it on a machine of mine and help another install it) but again on a device primarily used for production and doubly so if that is one's livelihood Win10 is a risky and foolish choice.
I'm neither a Luddite nor inexperienced with new tech and software but fun is fun and work is work and MS changes in how Windows is now treated make it a perpetual game of beta testing, I've use software from another company that played that and it is a pain. You don't risk those sort of potential problems with the OS on a machine that is for real work.
Its funny how you (Shogmaster) were arguing against wasting money by her buying too much ram but are for an OS that can potentially downright hinder productivity if it decides that a bad driver is the one you need or another forced MS feature change/addition/update instead causes a sleep of death or boot loop (since it has removable harddrives atleast there shouldn't be concerns of the system being completely bricked).
Pursuant to what you are saying, I find it makes me anxious that a whole slate of cool new stylus features are being readied for release.., but they are going to come bundled with the next Windows 10 update.
If I turn back on that dreaded update feature, what else are the Microsoft sorcerers going to do to my system?
Is the risk of allowing a bunch of black magic wombats to infect my system worth the promise of new stylus candy?
I don't know Ann. Worrying about that one potential update can ruin a day or so to force you to live several years behind the OS curve seems a bit extreme to me. Paranoid even. And I'm someone who enjoys that kind of paranoia.
I fvcking got it! You know what you should do? P70 has like 3 or 4 storage slots. You should dual boot. Have a drive that boot into Win7, and another one that boots into Win 10. If Win 10 install goes down due to forced update that goes wrong, you'll have the Win 7 as back up. Perfect solution.
I use to dual boot two instances of Win 10 for my BB460, so that I could use one install for playing games (I'm paranoid about game installs going wrong and taking my work machine down for the count, so I never game on my work machine). It was pretty damn easy to do. I wish all my other rigs have multiple storage slots like BB460 and VAIO Z Canvas.
To thatcomicsguy very uncool straw man fallacy and likely but up for interpretation ad hominem attack. Anyway what I've read so far on the "new" features most have read like things that could have been done for years via third party software (or worse actually have been in previous versions of Windows but just in slightly different forms and not well known). They also don't seem too relevant to serious work where the OS primarily should just be a means to loading real creation software.
To Shogmaster dual boot is a good suggestion/solution (Also AnnA not Ann and I've use 2000, NT, XP before Win7 I'm not against upgrades if they actually upgrade something). I personally also do have one machine actually set to triboot but I'm not sure how comfortable an average person/computer user is with creating a multiboot set up. As far as the "OS curve" if Microsoft was actually optimizing the OS and using less storage space and resources then that phrase would mean something but at best the updates have been lateral moves (for starters there is the cluster fvck that has been winsxs since Vista). The OS shouldn't be about gimmicks that 3rd parties have allowed for and done better at for years.
Personally I think if one wants to play with Win10 they should just get a junker or "cheap" laptop to play with and for real work use a good machine with an OS that still treats the user as an end consumer instead of as a product to be sold to others. If one is truly serious they should just have a separate machine for work optimized with as much that they can disable (I've achieved HDD boot times on Win7 as good as acquaintances with their new SSDs that felt so impressed how fast their machine had improved) and one for web and media consumption sticking with MS sh1tty defaults (like that 1.5 or whatever default paging file when with at most 8GB [maybe even just 4GB] of ram a paging file is for the majority of users absolutely unnecessary, just for starters) I'm too tired and old to keep dealing with idiots that can't read let alone think and question the obvious. I've lost respect for a number of you the last few days, not that you care. Lenovo kept a Win7 option on the P70 for a reason, if XoeisCool ordered it that way she made the right choice. Hopefully she won't be lead astray by hype driven lemmings. I'm signing out and eff most of you.
Huh? Are you directing that at me or Microsoft? I don't really understand it in either case. I'm just talking about Windows 10 and thought you made some good points.
Windows 10 was baffling and frustrating when I first encountered it with my brand new Dell Inspiron 15 a few weeks back. -But the touch features were surprisingly good and very welcome after years of WinXP on my last portable, so I figured I'd spend a week trying to hack it into shape before giving up and trying to fight the future with a Win7 installation.
I'm happy to report that I've got it to a point where it's ticking along quite nicely, but it definitely felt like I was in a constant argument with a bunch of stubborn Microsoft engineers (and probably some humorless dudes from the Matrix stalking around in the background.)
I'm still pretty chuffed about one of my favorite bits of code-jiggery, discovered and re-packaged here.
I saw a hack a while ago where the hardware Windows button on the screen was re-coded to toggle touch on and off. I think that could be useful for Photoshop days. (PS still bugs out with the touch feature on my system.) I might give that a try when I've got a free afternoon.
I think one of my favorite features is that closing and opening the screen works seemlesly with Sleep Mode. I've never had that before! It's like Star Trek.
The saga continues.
I have received the bamboo 2 in 1 smart pen and can confirm that the P70 does recognize it. The Thinkpad Pen Pro and the Smart are both very similar, with the Wacom pen winning out because of interchangeable nibs. At first the pen pressure issues were the same, until I installed the Surface Book wintab 64 drivers, and then 95% of the software started to work correctly with some hiccups. I'll have to do more testing.
As far as paid Lenovo support, they really haven't been able to tell me anything so far about the tech or the drivers. I believe they "escalated" the case, but they don't call back during the agreed upon times so that's not professional. Has anyone had experiences like this with paid support?
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