Surface Pro 8 - Speculation and Rumors

Discussion in 'Microsoft' started by dstrauss, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Well sai
    Well said @Marty though if rumors are to believed, Apple is just getting warmed up, eg. a new Pro 16 with Dual M1X processors and mini LED for instance.

    Not to mention a new 14 inch with graphic performance approaching mid range dedicated offerings from AMD and Nvidia in a package that gets 12 hours plus battery and again an improved (mini LED) display.

    Rumors are WWDC 2021 for the debut of these and possibly a reworked new form factor iMac as a bonus

    PS: the battery life on these new Airs and Pros is almost unbelievable so much so that I've asked our engineers to run a 3rd verification test
     
  2. JoeS

    JoeS I'm all ears Senior Member

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    Or alternatively, abandon all hardware development and sell only services, and concede the win to Apple. Which is totally a possible outcome at least in the consumer realm.
     
  3. sonichedgehog360

    sonichedgehog360 AKA Hifihedgehog Senior Member

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    I will just have to agree to disagree on where we each stand on this--it seems to me you are more of an ARM and Intel fan than anything. I differ especially on this point as many others have tested Zen 2/Renoir in embedded applications and come to entirely different conclusions that show AMD is the definitive winner in energy consumption and thermal output, meaning a significantly cooler and quieter solution. Here is one such example of many that is an extreme one where there is absolutely no thermal dissipation solution that demonstrates the thermal advantages of Zen 2/Renoir over Core. Yes, 11th Gen is a bit faster than 10th Gen, but Intel does not compete in a vacuum. AMD and Apple are improving far faster in intergenerational performance gains and are now way ahead of where Intel currently stands:

     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  4. sonichedgehog360

    sonichedgehog360 AKA Hifihedgehog Senior Member

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    Exactly this. Simplify and intensify. More with less. That is exactly why Apple is doing so well. They may simplify things to the point of absurdity and forgetting important features, but that is why Apple is winning so hard on this front now.

    The only thing to truly save the Surface brand is to divest themselves of all the excess baggage. Then they need to hit hard on all the right notes, on all their strengths that they have picked up over the years.

    Think about it: how many more of us would honestly upgrade to a Surface Book dock down the road if there was the option for the Surface Pro? Microsoft has overdiversified their Surface brand to the point that they have backed themselves into a corner and stretched themselves thin, paying alimony to all these child interests.

    Others have mentioned making the Surface Pro compatible with a Surface Book-style dock. The solution: end the Surface Book entirely. If someone wants a Surface Pro, they get a type cover and Surface. If they want a Surface Book, they buy a Surface Book-style dock and a Surface.

    Because they have lost the plot, Microsoft needs to seriously rediscover what defines their brand, what the overarching goal is, and what is the best path to victory. And once they do, they will be riding high: they would maximize profits by having less products to develop and support by streamlining things into a single winning design that offers the best of all of the brand's innovations accumulated over the years.

    A product line that lacks real innovation is one that keeps throwing things at the wall hoping it will stick. I know this sounds like boardroom drivel, but they need to get that one winning formula by culminating all their best strengths to hit top synergy. Like Apple, they need to work smarter, not harder.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
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  5. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Well you don't give up....

    First of all above everything, I am a right tool for the job person. My job requires that of me too.

    The examples you cite are somewhat niche, embedded systems for example. but if AMD is really the answer then you'd have OEMs falling over themselves to release more of them. So other than a handful of corporate experiments and the niches of gaming or web servers, where are they ? Because you know, competition.

    Yes they are making significant in roads in some areas and definitely are putting intel's feet to the fire. I'm certain we would not have the XE graphics of the 11th gen for example if not for the pressure they are feeling.

    Yes I am a fan of RISC for right now, because right now that is where the rapid advancement is happening ala Apple's M1.

    Again I'm not anti AMD as much as I am pro innovation, and AMD and Intel both are stuck in an at best incremental improvement rut.

    The legacy that is Wintel has a huge amount of blame for this and is an enormous factor in what Apple has been able to pull off.

    And again for an OEM to produce a product line or for companies to then adopt that line requires far more resources and support instead of just good performance. Something that in which Intel simply has no peer and that AMD has historically been weak at. The original Athalons being the best example of both the best and worst of AMD.

    But you do you :)

    BTW: On the topic of embedded systems, I'd venture to say 90% or more of those are sold in to either controlled or at least stable environments . Given the huge range of portable applications/users/usage, good results there simply don't apply.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
  6. sonichedgehog360

    sonichedgehog360 AKA Hifihedgehog Senior Member

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    Niche? My goodness, that's funny. This year for the first time ever, Dell representatives are pushing AMD over Intel in server which I believed would never happen, and it is almost hair-pulling for Intel fanboys to witness. AMD has won all the big supercomputer contracts and AMD is the new default choice for cloud and web servers.

    Amazon, Oracle, Google, Microsoft, all of the big players and even many of the little guys are buying AMD over Intel. Even the biggest names in web like Twitter and Google are using EPYC since 2019, and this trend has only multiplied in expansion in 2020.

    Moving aside from enterprise, then there is the atomic bomb called Zen 3. The advances with that brought a no-holds-barred, steamrolling victory for AMD. The lowest end Ryzen 5 5600X, a 6-core processor, now outperforms Intel's 8-core and sometimes even their 10-core processors in gaming to the point that people have fully woken up to the fact that Intel is in distant second. In all areas, AMD is the clear leader now and they are in sizzling hot demand in consumer markets.

    Again: AMD... a niche? Haha. That's a good one.

    To be clear, I am not an AMD fanboy so stop the false deflection. I never owned a single Bulldozer processor and I strongly urged family and friends at that time to avoid AMD because it was hot garbage. In fact, I wrote the following just a day ago on Reddit in a reply to another user:

    So yes, I am avid and lax lyrical about AMD products right now and yes, I am wildly passionate about their management and direction. But I sure as heck would drop them in a heartbeat if they begin losing out again to the market competition.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
  7. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    @sonichedgehog360 I came back intending to be nice, but your last response totally changed my mind.

    Niche doesn't necessarily mean the same as small as anyone that had high school English could tell you. Those examples you cite are the definition of niche, but also large. They are also the epitome of a controlled environment

    I could and was going to elborate on what I was talking about earlier, but it's just a waste of time with you. You have your head so far up AMD's ### it's beyond you to have reasoned nuanced discussion.

    BTW: I typed this on Lenovos new Yoga 6 with Ryzen and the fabric shell, an excellent laptop and one I'd consider buying myself.

    Good luck with whatever products you are flogging, I'm done!
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
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  8. dceggert

    dceggert Owner of a TabletPC Museum Senior Member

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    Well, now that Microsoft has perfected the MyPhone application to show the phone screen and allow it to be acted it how about a new Surface phone that can be kept in your pocket and a 'companion' screen of either 8", 10", or some other size as the user desires. A snap on keyboard could also be used, and it is just a dumb screen attached to the phone which houses the computing credentials.

    Want a 10" device today? Pull that out and go. Want a 14" laptop? Pull that out and go. Want an 8" pocked device? Toss that in your pocket and go. Want to just use the screen on the phone? Just take that.
     
  9. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Agreed, and I'm hoping MS goes further such as doing more than the minimum with tablet support (it half works at best on the tab s7) and evangelizing it with other phone OEMS eg. a prompt the you set up your phone that "for the best experience be sure to download the my phone app..."
     
  10. sonichedgehog360

    sonichedgehog360 AKA Hifihedgehog Senior Member

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    Of course, it does not only mean that (its synonym is segment or specialty), but in the context of everyday conversation where niche also often is used to express a small specialized market and the posturing of your sentence with words such as "handful," that was the meaning that was being conveyed.

    I provided examples of my nuanced conversation above, which may have been glossed over or willfully ignored. It is also okay for both of us to hold opinions that are starkly different on where products currently stand. I realize you want to find common ground on where Intel may be a good product, and I agree Intel held a lead in processor performance, but no longer. With Apple and AMD leaving Intel in the dust, the majority of ARM is still behind Apple which AnandTech has repeatedly emphasized in their own tests. Apple uses their own customized implementation of the ARM instruction set which distinctly sets it apart from the rest of the world of ARM. There is a lot of catching that still needs to be done by both Intel and the rest of ARM before either are compelling alternatives to Apple or AMD. Yes, 11th Gen is a bit faster than 10th Gen, but Intel does not compete in a vacuum. AMD and Apple are improving far faster in intergenerational performance gains and are now way ahead of where Intel currently stands.

    We both apparently have a polar opposite opinion but that does not mean I am saying you cannot have yours or that my opinion on the subject was meant to be taken as a personal attack, which it was not by any means. I should note that the performance gains AMD has been delivering with Zen 2 and now Zen 3 is far from incremental like Intel and follow the same large double digit year-over-year trajectories or trend line in performance that Apple is currently seeing. To date, AMD has nearly doubled their performance since Ryzen first hit in single threaded performance and is nearing quadrupling it in multithreaded due to the massive gains, very much Apple-esque. I understand RISC is seeing major innovation and it is something you see more intimately at the ground level from your job's daily perspective, so please do not take my different perspective as a dismissal or belitting of that innovation. All innovation is a net positive gain for the market and it cycles healthy competition up the food chain to push the market forward for everyone's sake here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
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