Surface Pro (2017) Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Microsoft' started by spinedoc77, May 21, 2017.

  1. convergent

    convergent Scribbler - Standard Member

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    We don't need to agree here. You are an artist, and a pretty good one from what I've seen. I'm not. We probably have very different needs. I can't imagine a time in my life when I'd ever need to do a black to white gradient, so why would I take the time to test this?

    Taken from Anantech's review - http://www.anandtech.com/show/11538/the-microsoft-surface-pro-2017-review-evolution/6 ; "Surface Pro 4 was easily the best display in its category" and goes on to discuss how its effectively the same panel in the nSP. So its not just me that likes the display on the nSP. But, I don't get so wrapped up on specs on one aspect of something, I look at the total package. My opinion that the display is great is based on my own experience with other displays I've owned and used. Everything is relative.
     
  2. Omazic.iv

    Omazic.iv Pen Pal - Newbie

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    Sorry to jump in again, and it is your right to have your own opinion, but it is as well right to say: from my perspective it is irrelevant as I don't use it like that, but you are right it should not happened to any device especially not to a premium one, and yes there should be announcement from Microsoft for the users that are affected with a procedure what to do next...

    For writing this answer I checked yearly average salary in USA on wikipedia and it is 57616 /12= 4801 usd/ month... meaning that on average salary you need to give 1/4 for that device (actually I don't know is that amount is net) and for that amount of money it need to be Super Duper right?!?

    In Italy things are even more extreme as average salary is 3192 euro and nSP is 1499euro (i5,8gb,256gb) - so you bet that for that amount of money it need to be Super Duper!

    And so on, I will not cover all country's I think you understand now my point of view. Also it can not be explained I don't need it for drawing so it is ok to have screen that is potentially defective.
    So every nSP artist should open them like Kinder-Surprise until they don't get one without defect?
    And if there is bleed now to understand why it is there, and if it is related to screen panel or it is related to some other technical/hardware issue.
    As if it is last one then you who are not artist will as well on a long run be affected...



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    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  3. dstrauss

    dstrauss Comic Relief Senior Member

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    This is a very interesting comment. Could you elaborate more on why you'd go Galaxy Book 12?
     
  4. convergent

    convergent Scribbler - Standard Member

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    I appreciate your analysis of wages vs. the price of a nSP, but fail to see what that has to do with anything. Cars cost way more and plenty of them are defective. The nSP is priced in line with other similar products. I paid more for a MacBook Air several years back. I've never seen a computer company that was able to make 100% perfect products. And if there is a widespread problem here, I highly doubt Microsoft is going to immediately come out with some public statement about it. (unless they are bursting into flames on planes!) They are going to study it extensively and once they decide what they are going to do then you'll hear about it. That could take many months or even a year, which has been the case many times with Apple.

    Without knowledge of how many devices Microsoft has sold, there is no way to know how widespread this problem is. There could have been 1000 happy customers for every one that has returned one (or 12). Only Microsoft knows that. I did not go through a bunch looking for a good one, and I would expect the majority (or at least many) of buyers are in that category or the complaint threads would be more widespread.

    Part of the challenge is that this reported problem is visual and only evident when you do certain things. Many buyers could have the described problem and never know it. So for them, there is no problem if they never see it. In my case, I have done some testing to look for light bleed and don't get the result that others are posting, so conclude I don't have the problem.

    I am not trying to dispute anyone's claim that they have received a defective product (or multiples)... I am simply saying that I did not, and wish that I didn't feel like I need to defend myself for saying it. At the end of the day, we all will spend our money on what we see value in, and that is a very subjective thing to measure since all of us have different needs; and we are all going to see visual aspects of products through our on eyes and use cases.
     
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  5. Omazic.iv

    Omazic.iv Pen Pal - Newbie

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    Well, I am sorry if you don't see connection. My point is we all work for money right? With that money we buy things, for bigger things like cars, boats, houses etc we take a mortgage in bank, that is again in line with how much you gain or how big is your salary. Everything has its value and according to that value it is categorized like: premium, mainstream etc... Of course by we I think about average Joe/Jane who work hard 8h/day by contract but closer to 10h/day in reality. So it is very important from my aspect of view if I buy something that cost 1/4 or ½ of my salary to get device with any kind of defect, and that is the same is it a sneakers for my daughters, nSP, car or whatever, every single $ or whatever currency want to put for me counts, as I worked hard and honest to be paid, so when I spent I expect same thing, ok?

    Azzart is clearly interested in this unit and bought it as he will thru it gain money so for him this nSP is for real professional tool that needs to be premium, without defect to secure his work and be able to pay of that device. Now we don't all live in USA and don't have Microsoft store to walk in buy, go out test, and return and replace in couple of hours, we need to order it online from Microsoft/Amazon, or buy in some local IT chain and then every return or change cost you not only time but as well money, as you don't get your new device straight away.

    Well yes now is just visual and I hope (no matter that I don't even have nSP) that it will stay like that, and that will not become later on more serious problem.

    Yes of course you have right on your own opinion, and sorry if I provoke you or put you in position that you need to explain yourself. I remember that you had issues with deliver and your family member discount that you were using during online order, so clearly you are like me or others here (who did not get device without defect) carefully spending your money.

    Anyway one more time I am sorry to point it out bold like this, and I did not want to start any fight or anything like that. You have right to your own opinion, spend your money like you want, good luck with your device and cheers!


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    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  6. convergent

    convergent Scribbler - Standard Member

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    All good... not seeing this as a fight but rather just different points of view. The feeling of needing to defend myself wasn't talking about this thread... but rather another site where any position to the contrary of a few of the people resulted in a "prove it" response.

    I work long hard hours for my money too. And I don't buy a new mobile computer very often... I think I mentioned my last purchase was over 5 years ago. I don't take a purchase decision lightly. But I also don't get wrapped in specs, test scores, etc.. I am looking at the total value to me of what I bought. That equation will be different for everyone.

    This discussion earlier turned to the design of the nSP being inferior to other products. If that's the case, then no amount of opening boxes is going to change anything. Either the design meets your needs or it doesn't. Part of the design includes product variability, and the nSP does seem to have a bit of that. Perhaps that will tighten as it matures, or maybe it won't. All unknowns.
     
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  7. metalsiren

    metalsiren Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I do agree that the screen should be better, even on my unit I notice some small things (I don’t think as bad as others have put it) but I do see them none the less. And I agree with those that say it should be perfect for the money , since other devices that I have such as IPP and MBP I dont see the same thing.

    BUT, on my nSP its not something that I notice on day to day use and dont notice it on OneNote. So for that its ok... but like I said its a premium device and it should be premium in all aspects.

    Also its good that everyone has an opinion,that’s the whole point of forums like this to discuss things in a civilized manor :)

    Now f**k off to everyone :). Jk


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  8. Steve S

    Steve S Pen Pro - Senior Member Super Moderator

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    <<...as I worked hard and honest to be paid, so when I spent I expect same thing...>>

    ...Well, this is quite the discussion. A few of thoughts of my own:
    • With no disrespect intended to Azzart (really!), I laugh at your backlight bleed example. You think that's bad? You should see my Z Canvas, an even more expensive device that looks like it has foot lights running across the bottom of its screen. (And, yes, this was / is a commonly reported "defect" of the Z Canvas.) But here's the thing: during normal usage, this degree of light bleed isn't noticeable at all! In fact, it's gotten to the point where I don't even notice it if I have a monochrome screen. So, on this issue, I side with convergent; "perfection" shouldn't be judged based on largely irrelevant situations.
    • HOWEVER, grayscale banding (up to a point), non-uniform radiance (up to a point), lines and other screen defects are certainly objectionable and I have to side with Azzart on these issues.
    • Is this a systemic production problem with the nSP? I think the point goes to convergent here. My i7 nSP has little noticeable light bleed along its lower edge and no "dark bands" or lines in portrait mode or landscape. So not all nSP share these problems. The fact that one might encounter several successive units with similar problems isn't indicative of a general problem, in my mind. As convergent noted, local inventories of product are almost always subdivided from a particular production lot. If that lot or batch happened to be produced poorly, it would be perfectly logical to find that all of the stock at a specific location shared those defects. This may be no comfort to Azzart, but I think it is the real situation.
    • Should "premium items" be "perfect?" Of course that would be nice, but that ideal ignores reality. All production has variability, whether you like it or not. Highly integrated products can be very susceptible because of tight tolerances and the resulting limited ability to "adjust things" in line. Some items... like the display... may be delivered as finished sub-assemblies with no adjustability at all. Most production plans try to have the best design-for-manufacturing-assembly at the outset, but every setup that I've ever seen has had to accommodate in-line process mods over the course of time. Omazic.iv argues that, for a premium price, a premium product should not have obvious defects (if I understand correctly). Would that it were so. In the real world, the price of absolutely "zero defects" is so high that you would not buy the article. Sad, but true, and point to convergent.
     
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  9. Azzart

    Azzart Late night illustrator Senior Member

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    I don't get offended, don't worry. ;)
    Honestly, I don't care much about backlight bleeding on the border: my (ex) Cintiq Companion had a generous amount of it I could see when the windows loading screen was visible. Even the cintiq 27 had it.
    BUT
    it was only visible there and the rest if the display was fine and evenly lit, when drawing on a white or light toned canvas I would have never noticed it. With the display of the new Surface Pro it's the opposite: you don't notice the light bleed much in dark conditions but you notice all the rest of the of the unevenness throughout the screen when drawing on the mentioned canvas.

    And while I can accept something like this on a cheap low budget tablet, I can't accept it on a Ferrari tablet.
    More so considering it's something (the display uneven lit) I have never seen on a Surface.
    If someone can accept this same thing on a Z Canvas good for him/her, it doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be there at all though.
    Tolerance to defects goes down as the amount of money it costs rises.


    Edit:
    An addendum:
    Regarding banding, that's not a defect, it's something that plagues any Surface device since at least the Surface Pro 3. Partially its hardaware and partially is drivers: on the Sp3 with the original Intel drivers instead of Microsoft's it was better.
    On the new Surface Pro things aren't as bad as the Sp3 but the banding is still there.
    And going back with memory I don't remember another display I have had (be it tablet, laptop, monitor or phone) that's so poor in showing a gradient. Feels like a 6bit display like the old iMac 21".
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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  10. Bronsky

    Bronsky Wait and Hope. Senior Member

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    My $.02 on light bleed. Any light bleed, IMHO, means that the display is not properly seated in its frame. The fact that not every unit made bleeds and some units have none is evidence that, when properly seated, light does not bleed from the display. Almost any amount of light bleed is unacceptable to me. I consider it a manufacturing defect, since a properly seated display does not bleed light. Thus, it is a symptom of inadequate quality control in the assembly process.

    One of the reasons I like to purchase units from the Microsoft store in-person is so I can see the display before the purchase and confirm the fit of the components. I reject any unit that has light bleed. In this way, I have avoided any units that bleed light for a number of generations. I am even willing to pay a bit more to buy in a brick and mortar store, so I can be sure I'm satisfied with the unit I buy.

    The number of complaints about the fitment of the nSP make it obvious to me that MS has fairly crappy QA/QC for this unit. Obviously, no one is checking the display fitment before the unit moves down the assembly line.
     
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