Surface Duo Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Microsoft' started by JoeS, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Hardware is hard, but thinness is only a partial excuse. I think it was at least as much aesthetic decision as anything as there are single lens camera modules out there that are more than thin enough. In other words I think it has a much to do with making it look as much as possible like shrunken surface laptop as any other reason.

    And a mediocre camera doesn't bother me in the least in this type of device as the challenges with holding it and placing the lens are significant. And I think most that buy it aren't looking at the camera as a primary function but more tertiary. Not to mention that if it had Note 20 ultra class cameras, it would likely be north of $2k
     
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  2. jhoff80

    jhoff80 Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    I know this is off topic, but there's already prototype devices. Halfway through the video you can see text extending across the crease as well.

     
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  3. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Cool. I had not seen those yet. Going to dig in to that today as a flexible e-ink display could be useful in a couple of our custom devices.

    I guess I should have been more specific as to saying Carta e-ink which is the predominant e-ink display in the majority of e-readers on the market
     
  4. JoeS

    JoeS I'm all ears Senior Member

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    I must be missing something here. There's already a single lens camera module in the Duo that's more than thin enough. Are you saying there are better sub-4.8mm thickness camera modules out there than the one they put in?

    There's a reason even thicker phones get a camera bump. The iPhone 11 is over 8mm thick, and they still gave it a camera bump so that they could put higher quality cameras in there. I'd be surprised if that kind performance can be matched in a sub 5mm module at any cost.
     
  5. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Yes. in the case of the iPhone its the zoom functions and the focusing hardware that are part of what makes it thicker, not to mention multiple sensors and lenses.
    As with all things, that's part of (in my opinion worthwhile ) a trade off for additional functionality including zoom and finer exposure and focusing accuracy. But in terms of raw sensor capability yes.
     
  6. dstrauss

    dstrauss Comic Relief Senior Member

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    Not only a very good review but she touched on more interesting finds - adjusting size of keyboard, etc. AND she correctly referred to "modes" and not "postures" - great catch. Turns out she's iJustine's sister, who also was pretty positive about the Duo (especially compose mode for email etc.). Also surprising how she didn't diss the camera like so many others.

    I was also impressed with the fluid scrolling of both applications on the separate screens - good job.



    Good points across the board. Especially the question if it is "another" device I'd have to carry. I have been a rabid fan for a pocket moleskine for so long I feel like a traitor. What I didn't realize the number of trade offs this would entail, or better still, the number of other devices my iPhone 11 Pro replaces. Although the numbers of calls I receive is shrinking, I still need a phone to go with my text and email. A smartwatch is barely acceptable for your notifications at a glance - peeking is definitely not a substitute. And the camera - I rarely break out my Lumix bridge camera anymore. Not to mention it is my iPod replacement, GPS, and more.

    It feels like it would be another device I'd have to carry in addition to my phone, tablet, and laptop. Still, @JoeS' review find (both Jenna and Justine) made it look practical as well as productivity functional.


    PDA - yes, that is the correct analogy, and I LOVED my Palm Vx and even better, the simple Treo 90. The tough part is still whether I can do without all the rest. I just don't know that it can be my "one communication device."

    With the return of my Flex (digitizer failure), and the fact my laptop is an asset of teh firm I may be departing, I have picked up a used SG2/256gb for my computer use. It is so small, if the Duo were a secondary device to my iPhone, I could just as easily bring along the small SG2 for serious note taking and couch potato work, and still have my FULL environment with me. No, it does not fit in my pocket, but short of that, there is a lot more punch in that combination than my iPhone 11 pro plus a $1500 Duo.
     
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  7. negative1

    negative1 Retro Surface fan

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    a-ha, i see what you're insinuating there. so india -> yoga. haha just kidding.

    later
    -1
     
  8. JoeS

    JoeS I'm all ears Senior Member

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    Larger module thickness also means more distance from lens(es) to sensor, meaning at the same NA you capture way more light, and the pixels can be larger at the same resolution. I think larger pixels are less electronically noisy to begin with, and with the larger lens you get more light per pixel, which also improves the signal to noise ratio.

    So bigger is just better, period (for camera modules guys, come on). Which means they designed themselves into a corner by making both device sides equal thickness, and therefore very thin. No way around that, except if they put the sensor in the bottom device half, and the lens assembly in the top device half. Would be fun, I think I saw a patent that described that. Focus and stray light would be challenges though. Maybe in gen 2. :)
     
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  9. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Yes well, all of that has "it depends " attached to it and it's getting way off topic to delve deep in to it. Thinks like the digital to analog conversion and sensor type such as possibly using a back illuminated sensor (which makes absolute micron size of the pixels less of an issue) or a laser assist focus module (like in the Note 20)

    TLDR it is a multifaceted topic to say the least.

    I'm certain due to information relayed by MS staff that the camera simply wasn't a top tier priority for this device at least in version one. Given what else they focused on and did superbly I'm ok with that choice.
     
  10. Steve S

    Steve S Pen Pro - Senior Member Super Moderator

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