Surface defeats jitter..?

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by thatcomicsguy, Nov 30, 2018.

  1. thatcomicsguy

    thatcomicsguy Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,019
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Trophy Points:
    231
    I ran across this video...



    Teoh Yi Chie performed a nice little set of line quality comparisons between the various pens available for Surface products, and the current incarnation of the Surface Pro pen looks pretty great:

    screenshot.3.jpg

    Interestingly, the Wacom AES pen had the worst performance of the bunch.

    I'm currently lamenting the weirdly flawed driver performance on my Dell Canvas 27, (where lines hook if you draw too fast), and wondering how long I will be able to go before seriously thinking about trading in this board for something more stable. :( (Somewhat frustratingly, from what I'm piecing together by looking over the various reviews of the Cintiq Pro 24, it appears the touch feature on my Dell is superior to that of the Cintiq, and I've become quite fond of it, so I'm torn.)
     
    batty likes this.
  2. Azzart

    Azzart Late night illustrator Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,093
    Likes Received:
    1,419
    Trophy Points:
    181
    I've been telling this for at least seven months now. No one seems to be taking me seriously. :rolleyes:
     
    thatcomicsguy likes this.
  3. batty

    batty Pen Pal - Newbie

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I also just rewatched Lisa's reviews of the Dell Latitude 5290 (jitter test @9:11) and Latitude 7390 (jitter test @5:35) and they don't seem to produce much jitter at all (Both are 8th gen core i and Wacom AES 2.0).
    @Shogmaster do you still have the Dell active pen MPP/AES/WhateverProtocolIteration around? I know you're not fond of doing jitter tests and whatnot but could you do it just for comparison?
    I'm so confused about what causes all these jitters? Is it because of the grid density? or the polling rate? or both? It seems that each device + pen combination has its own level of jitter :confused:
     
  4. Azzart

    Azzart Late night illustrator Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,093
    Likes Received:
    1,419
    Trophy Points:
    181
    Those reviews made me interested in getting an XPS 15 2 in 1 this past spring, so imagine my feeling discovering it didn't perform that way at all jitter wise.
    Thus came the Surface Book 2.

    P. S.
    Also, consider in the first video you posted there was a 10% smoothing active in Photoshop, which isn't much but it's still something.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
    batty likes this.
  5. Marty

    Marty Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,578
    Likes Received:
    1,928
    Trophy Points:
    181
    I can confirm this even on the older DuoSense 2 digitizer of the Z Canvas.

    The current gen SP5 pen has extremely low jitter and more consistent response times and palm rejection; the SP4 pen and Bamboo Ink Smart had wavy jitter and occasional hiccups in tracking.

    Also bear in mind, NTrig performance is heavily software dependent (as I noted way back in one of the EMR vs NTrig threads). For best performance, use UWP apps (that have native Win10 DirectInk API), for which the most consistent environment to test in is the Windows Ink Workspace Sketchpad.
     
    Steve S, thatcomicsguy and batty like this.
  6. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,959
    Likes Received:
    1,251
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Having everything being equal, Jitter is definitely due to grid density. Polling rate doesn't matter when you draw slow enough to induce jitter.

    Having said that, driver is something you guys are missing from this discussion. See below...
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
    thatcomicsguy and batty like this.
  7. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,959
    Likes Received:
    1,251
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Test like this pretend that only the digitizer and pen hardware matters. Unfortunately that's not the case (I wish it was). Just as important, if not more so, is the driver that tells the computer how to use the digitizer and pen hardware. Wacom running on Microsoft native Ink driver in Windows 10 vs Wacom running on either Feel driver or Professional driver is like night and day. Try switching back and forth between MS driver and Wacom Wintab in Clip Studio Paint. There's a HUGE difference in pen behavior.

    I have realized playing with dual protocol pens, both AES 1.0 and 2.0, that they are far from ideal pen to use on Surface MPP devices. There was noticeable wonkiness to how the Bamboo Ink behaved on my old VAIO Z Canvas, and certainly how the new Dell AES 2.0 dual protocol behaves on something like Surface Studio 2 (no tilt for instance, even though pen tilt works fine on AES 2.0 devices. I'm at this point, would not give up Surface pen on Surfaces, just to gain few grams of IAF by using Wacom dual protocol pens.
     
  8. jedah

    jedah Pen Pal - Newbie

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Funny that you posted this. I saw this video as well as Teoh's Lenovo Pen Pro 2 video and have been thinking about this. I didn't realize Wacom AES and MPP had come such a way. I wish I saw these videos BEFORE Black Friday. I hope the improvements translate to all MPP devices? I'm totally thinking of going to a Best Buy and trying the latest Surface Pen on my HP Spectre x360 late 2017 (MPP).

    I really hope the IAF has improved too as that makes a bigger difference in my drawing style than jitter. I switched to a Bamboo Ink a year or two ago b/c the IAF difference was very noticeable against the Surface 3 pen, and I never bothered switching back. I've been toying w/ the idea of switching to the Notebook 9 Pro to go back to Wacom EMR since I've started to draw more, but everything but the pen in the Samsung seems to fall short of my Spectre (design, battery, keyboard, etc). So if this new Surface pen can get me much closer to Wacom EMR w/o sacrificing the IAF (too much), I think I'm in.
     
  9. Azzart

    Azzart Late night illustrator Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,093
    Likes Received:
    1,419
    Trophy Points:
    181
    I wouldn't hold my breath for that, best you can expect is for the Spectre to work as good ad the Surface Pro 4.
     
  10. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,959
    Likes Received:
    1,251
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Agreed. Some of the HP's MPP digitizers are positively sh*t, depending on the model. I tried suffering through Envy 17T's horrific MPP digitizer for doing real work, just for the sake of that 17" real estate. It's simply too crappy. The grid is HUGE, giving you excessive jitter even when drawing fast, and the pressure curve is terrible no matter which pen you use.

    I would entirely avoid HP's Envy line for MPP action.
     
Loading...

Share This Page