Lenovo Windows 8 ThinkPad Tablet 2 - Tablet + dockable Keyboard Combo

Discussion in 'Lenovo (IBM)' started by kvoram, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. Rommie2k6

    Rommie2k6 Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Your expectations are too low. If everyone consumer was like you, we'll have to pay through the nose to get tablets (like now).

    Your cutting edge tech is BS and an excuse. The Nexus 7 costs about $150-ish to construct. How much more do you think an Atom slate costs? Ok, larger screen size with digitizer, Atom CPU maybe slightly more expensive than ARM, but it is no Core i. At most I give the construction cost $400 MAX for an Atom Slate. Selling it for $800 is a 100% markup. I am no iSheep, I refuse to pay for a product with this kind of markup.

    The digitizer probably cost $100 only. Oh please... you expect me to believe that the digitizer layer is equal to the cost of a 10" tablet with all its components?

    I don't care that the old Atom slates were $800. That was pre Windows 8 era. Post Windows 8 Atom slates prices have to come down to be competitive if they want to go mainstream and not serve vertical markets. You are using the already overpriced pre Windows 8 slates and using it a reference point and concluding that prices are reasonable? Oh geesh...

    I don't care about iSheeps buying iPads for $500. Only idiots with half a brain would spend half a grand on some stupid ARM device. A 10" ARM tablet with capacitive screen cost $300 or $400 with keyboard dock if you search around hard enough. The premium for an Atom slate of the same form factor (no keyboard) does not justify a 100% markup. Again you oversell the fluff of the various benefits like a dockable keyboard, military toughness, etc... when not everyone needs them.

    The Tablet PC is now a secondary device to me. What I need is a cheap and fast enough digital inkpad (i.e. OneNote). I don't need HD resolution, I can live with 1280x800. I don't need super high quality IPS screen, a bright LED backlight LCD will suffice (all of us who grew up with convertibles did not have great IPS screen with 178 degrees viewing angle). I don't need a keyboard dock, since I am using it as a digital notepad. All these fluff just adds unnecessary excuses to jack up the price. You are arguing as if your Atom slate is going to a primary device... which if that is your assumption then you are sorely mistaken. People who need a Tablet PC as a replacement for their desktop/laptop would automatically go for Core i tablets... and at prices of $1.2k, it's about a 20-30% markup vs equivalent laptops, so it is not too bad. People who are going for Atom slates are obviously not going to use it as their primary device, and we will not justify plonking down $800 for that piece of junk, which is a >100% markup over their non-tablet counterparts (i.e. netbook).

    I paid a little under $1k for my quad core notebook last year, with max HDD, max RAM and discrete graphics. You expect me to pay almost the same price for an Atom slate? Think again. No matter how you analyze it, a $800 Atom slate is a 100%+ markup. Only iSheeps pay those kind of prices.

    I've waited almost a bloody 6mth to get at this point only to find that Atom slates are going to be overpriced, it doesnt help to have cheerleaders who think that their price is fair. I purchased the Dell Latitude ST for less than $400 earlier this year, GOOD price but it was too damn slow. Looks like I may have to wait another year. This is ridiculous! Btw, the cost price of the current Dell Latitude ST is probably the similar to the upcoming Atom slates, the only difference in component cost is N-Trig to Wacom. I only hope that people will purchase tons of Atom slates to find that they are overpriced slow devices and return them, then the refurb market will be flooded :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  2. Rommie2k6

    Rommie2k6 Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Just another rant, read a report that the $800 TPT2 has a keyboard and a "bundled" MS office. Jesus Christ, what the hell? Can't they sell these extra crap separately. If no KB and no MS office, I'm sure they can lower it to a more reasonable $600 price point. Incidentally without the extra nonsense it can be done - Samsung's Series 5 is starting off at $649. We need more competition to lower this price point!
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  3. Pianomanos

    Pianomanos Scribbler - Standard Member

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    It looks like the $800 for the Tablet 2 includes both the keyboard dock and the pen (wacom?). Compare with the Samsung Ativ Smart PC (aka Series 5 hybrid), which is $750 with keyboard and pen (wacom). Also compare with the previous generation of atom-based tablets, like the Fujitsu Q550 which was $850 with pen (n-trig) but no keyboard.

    To some people, the extra $50 over the Samsung may be worth the Thinkpad name and the (presumably) better construction. Also, it looks like all of the new atom-based tablets will be thinner, lighter, longer-running, slightly faster, and slightly cheaper then the previous generation. It also looks like they will mostly come with wacom digitizers rather than the n-trig ones on the previous generation (HP Slate, Fujitsu Q550, and Motion CL900), which is definitely a good thing.
     
  4. Bronsky

    Bronsky Wait and Hope. Senior Member

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    If Lenovo follows its normal pattern, the TP2 should be released with a 25% coupon. That would put it at your dream price.
     
  5. Erik Latranyi

    Erik Latranyi Scribbler - Standard Member

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    The biggest issue is the Atom's poor reputation.

    We do not know how Clover Trail tablets will perform with Windows 8, so all this speculation about "value" is ignorance on display.
     
  6. dceggert

    dceggert Moving 'up' from iPAQ Senior Member

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    The N2600 dual core atom is posting benchmark numbers pretty close to twice as fast as the single core Z670. It is now in the league with the C2D of about the same clock speed. This while claiming longer battery life than the single core variant (see Q550 vs. Q552 specs for a comparison).
     
  7. bloodycape

    bloodycape Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Well last I heard the new atoms are closer to the lower c2d. But how does the gpu compare?
     
  8. Bronsky

    Bronsky Wait and Hope. Senior Member

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    Intel has decided to use with Imagination's PowerVR SGX 544MP2, which, on paper, should compare favorably with other low powered GPUs. The problem is that Intel has failed to provide efficient drivers for the last few generations of its atom IGPUs. Hopefully, at the Atom W8 tablet event, someone will give the GPU a test drive.
     
  9. Steve B

    Steve B Moderator Moderator

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    For what it's worth, the Passmark test score for the new atom is 602. The u7500 C2D 1.06 ghz runs at 613. That was out about 3-4 years ago or so on some of the Motion slates. So that's the comparison. My current core2duo sl9400, that runs at 1.86 ghz, gets something like 1300 on Passmark, so the new Atom still has a way to go. But it's a beginning.

    Some people have made a big deal about the fact that current Atom cpu's still can only process things in order, and that that will be changing next year to non-sequential processing with the BayTrail cpu. So, I guess the idea is that ghz isn't the only thing to worry about.

    All the demo videos look like the Atom runs Win8 very smoothly, but Windows has been trimmed down and cleaned up to run well on tablets with less power. I think the real issue is how it runs real Windows programs that actually demand some horsepower.
     
  10. Rommie2k6

    Rommie2k6 Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Generally correct, but the Clover Trail atom will not be any faster than the N2600 Atom chips out today. There has been no improvement on the CPU side, but a big jump in GPU performance

    A bit of history:
    Z5X0/Z6X0 Atom - Used in 2011 atom tablets. The CPU is immensely slow (about 1/3 to 1/4 of a Core 2 Duo ULV CPU @1.2GHz). The GPU is also immensely slow, the performance is equivalent to the GPU on the Samsung Galaxy S phone released in 2010.
    N2600 Atom - Used in the Q552 refresh and most 2011 netbooks. It's basically a dual core version of the Z5X0/Z6X0 Atom series and based on benchmark it is just below a Core 2 Duo ULV CPU@1.2GHz. The GPU was a big improvement that puts it around the iPad 2 performance
    Clover Trail Atom - No significant changes to CPU, some clock speed, so expect similar CPU performance to the N2600 Atom series. GPU has a marginal improvement to put it around the iPad 3 performance level. In comparison to laptop GPU, that's about equivalent to the Intel GPU released for 1st-generation Core i series (assuming they don't f*** up the drivers).

    So in conclusion, Atom slates in 2012 will have a CPU that is at best equivalent to a Core 2 Duo ULV @1.2GHz and a GPU that is equivalent to the Intel GPU released for 1st-generation Core i series (assuming the drivers are good). That's not too bad... but I wished they improved the CPU performance. Will have to wait for Bay Trail (Atom in 2013) for that to happen.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2012
  11. e-schreiber

    e-schreiber ƒ(x) / fashion Senior Member

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    At this point, with a single sample, it's still conjecture, but I think that people who tolerated the Slate 500 and Q550 should be more than fine with the new Clover Trail. I'm itching to try one as the detachable form-factor has always been my favourite!
     
  12. Rommie2k6

    Rommie2k6 Scribbler - Standard Member

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    The Clover Trail benchmarks are at expectations (i.e. Core 2 Duo ULV @1.2GHz). I use a Fujitsu T2010 with that CPU, and it can be sluggish during heavy ink load.
     
  13. Erik Latranyi

    Erik Latranyi Scribbler - Standard Member

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    For those complaining about price, the Fujitsu Stylistic Q702 Core i5 with keyboard dock is $1718
     
  14. Rommie2k6

    Rommie2k6 Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Fujitsu stuff are always overpriced crap. You can probably get a better deal at their ebay store.
     
  15. Kazy

    Kazy Pen Pal - Newbie

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  16. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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  17. Sandiegosd

    Sandiegosd Pen Pal - Newbie

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    I was looking at this page on engadget Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet 2 priced at $649 and up, still on track to ship this month -- Engadget

    From the press release section:pricing and Availability
    ...
    The ThinkPad Tablet 2 will be available starting in November through business partners and Laptops, Tablet PCs, Netbooks, Desktops, PCs, Computers and Accessories | Lenovo | US. Pricing for models starts at $649.

    I suppose this price would be for the pen-less (but hey, you get the silo) model with minimum specs. ( same as the 1st gen 16G thinkpad tablet?[citation needed])
    Also.. available not until Nov..oh well
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
  18. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    Bummer, I thought it was on track for October 26th. It was the first Lenovo Windows 8 product to be unveiled, you'd think it'd be ready for the market by now.
     
  19. excalibur1814

    excalibur1814 Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    It's ok as October 26th is quite close to November! :)

    I'm ordering this or the Dell but don't expect to have it next to me until close to the end of November. You never know... Lenovo might have gigantic orders (Fingers crossed)
     
  20. BellevuePaul

    BellevuePaul Pen Pal - Newbie

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    I think we can piece together what is going on with the timing. You'll notice that all of the manufacturers that are planning Atom-based tablets are vague about their delivery dates and also about their battery life. Lenovo and Intel have been firm on 10 hours, but it seems like everyone else is waffling. Lenovo has often commented on the close relationship they have with Microsoft and Intel in developing this tablet, and the specs very closely match the vision Intel has always advertised about what Clover Trail can do. I think it has been important to Lenovo to satisfy every one of the promises that Intel made for this chip, if possible.

    So a few weeks ago you saw a brief controversy about the Intel power management software, and at the same time Intel's Otellini made the unusual comment that Windows 8 "isn't ready" and "has bugs." Then a few days later Microsoft came out with an unexpected update that, among other things, "improved battery life."

    So this is pure speculation, but it looks to me like the OEMs weren't able to get the promised battery life, and complained. Intel and Microsoft did some finger-pointing, and Microsoft initially didn't budge. Otellini got Ballmer's attention, they sat down and worked it out, and Microsoft did what it needed to do to help Intel boost its battery life. So now Intel is re-optimizing and re-testing its software with the new Windows 8 update, and then the OEMs all have to retest their systems and load the new software on the units that are preparing to ship.

    Whatever the problem was, it must be a software problem and not hardware, or we would hear about it. Software testing always brings a lot of uncertainties, so that's why no one will commit to a delivery date. Just this morning I got an email from Lenovo advertising a closeout sale on PCs and laptops, which ends October 24. This might be a signal that the testing is nearing completion and things look good to go. I'm waiting to see if Lenovo changes its battery life claim, but so far it still says 10 hours on their web site.

    My guess is that Lenovo won't meet the target of delivering this tablet on October 26 (at least, not for most people), but might at least be able to open its web site to offer the tablet for sale on that date, for delivery the following week. Again, that's speculation and maybe wishful thinking, but it makes sense to me.
     
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