Last gen 7820HQ i7 in a late 2018 $5000 all in one? What the F are you doing Microsoft? Seriously!

Discussion in 'The Tablet PC Life' started by Shogmaster, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. doobiedoobiedum

    doobiedoobiedum Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Just thinking more on this - how many concept artists actually are there? A large number of companies closed down near me in Newcastle and created Atomhawk - concept artists are a rare breed; a true hard core concept artist works just at the start of the process and then what? This was the reason several companies closed their expensive concept departments down and those guys got together to make their own service industry.

    Nobody can guarantee this industry will be around forever as some new industry always comes along. Are we going to judge the merit and worth of all the rest of drawing on a temporary industry? If you look at the kind of characters which are becoming popular with young females (they are finding their way in the industry) there is a "look" or character design style which you can reproduce in predictable steps.

    Predictable steps can often be replicated by an algorithm that becomes a photoshop filter...
     
  2. Azzart

    Azzart Late night illustrator Senior Member

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    If by concept artists you also mean character designers, creature designers, environment designers, mechanical designers, prop designers and so on (basically, all people working in the entertainment) and not just the few top players, probably just as many as there are illustrators.
     
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  3. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    Imma stab a guess and say you went to RCA? I didn't go to Art Center. I went to CCS, which is like Art Center, but located in the desolation of Detroit Michigan, lolz. But very similar structured schools we are talking about. I spent 3 years in CCS' transportation design program before running out of money and ended up getting a job at Hasbro in my Junior year. But I know exactly that world you are talking about of car design and clay modelling etc..

    And I remember that most of the kids I did trans with me weren't able to draw faces either lolz. Intense training in car design basically teaches you how to draw cars in a certain way, with specific VISCOM techniques to achieve it but not useful necessarily for other things. Just because you are a hot sh*t at car rendering doesn't necessarily mean you can draw a dragon or something. I luckily could draw other things at that point so I was employable at Hasbro. Most of my coworkers actually came from comic book illustration background there. There were many varied skill sets at Hasbro: Comic book artists, classical product designers with Industrial design training, some vehicle designers among them like me, but I was a few that was able to draw whatever: vehicles, action figures, creatures, cute stuff, whatever. So I was able to go between many teams there. Worked on Superman, Batman, Jurassic World, vehicle lines etc..

    For me, drawing is drawing. Whether it's fine art portraits or car design or comic books, drawing skills have some common ground skill sets. And if you suck at those baseline skills, the rest of it will suffer. You can try to get into every new exotic techniques or tools of rendering or whatever, but if you tend to chicken scratch your way into every stroke with no regard for things like proportions, then I will tell you that you suck. I don't care how much schooling and degree and whatever you have or haven't had. And I don't think someone like Lisa had much training. She probably does it for hobby, not career. Does that mean she is free from critique from me? No. Especially if she wants to feature her drawings in every pen based device she reviews. But my critique isn't to tare her down for the sake of it. It's a call to improve her skills. This ain't rocket science. There are methods to this madness. But it does require willingness and desire to improve. If she is happy with where she is then that's fine. But if she is willing to keep drawing in those reviews, I as a person who clicks on those reviews (and often gives them like ratings because they are good reviews) do have a right to critique her drawings.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  4. doobiedoobiedum

    doobiedoobiedum Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Ah, I meant games and Hollywood standard movie guys. I fell off my chair when you said as many concept artists as illustrators because I know professional illustrators around me and while they are not as common as graphic designers (must be graphic design jobs in every city and town in the UK) I would say at least twice as many illustrators as concept art gaming and film industry types.

    Yeah, I went to the RCA. I've never had a passion for cars though - not the same as the guys who came from Lanchester University who were subsidised by the international manufacturers and yes - I would say I was about the only one in the 3 different year groups I knew that self-enrolled into figure drawing classes. That was for me because I had / have a passion for it. And yes, as I noted before with my product design course I was schooled into 3d Vis and then on the car course all my individual techniques got hammered away to learn marker and pastel. (which is why I found relief in drawing)

    Anyhow, we've come back full circle to Lisa. Yes I agree she is not a portrait artist and no I am not disagreeing your right to critique her. (I'm not denying free speech!) What I have spent the last page or so disagreeing though is that portrait drawing is the only way to get into a career as a commercial artist and your experience at College for Creative Studies backs me up. Portrait drawing / figure drawing is also not the only way to tell whether a 2D visual artist can actually draw and drawing as I'm sure you're bored of me saying - doesn't just happen from a pencil. (or stylus)
     
  5. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    Listen, it doesnt matter its faces or high fasion. If you chicken scratch, thats a pretty good indication of lack of drawing skills, ya know? ;)
     
  6. Azzart

    Azzart Late night illustrator Senior Member

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    It isn't.
    What I, and I suppose Shogmaster, am saying is that figure drawing is one of the basic skills, the foundation, anyone that wants to be a good artist should learn and practice. Along with human anatomy, landscape drawing, perspective, archiyectural drawing, colour theory (you know, things like low key/high key, aerial perspective, global illumination, etc. -Color and Light from James Gurney is a simple good book in this sense) and other things I'm sure I'm forgetting.
    The more you know, the better.

    You said you may find someone has an interest for landscapes and will then try and make him experiment and improve that. Someone else may be interested in drawing the human figure.
    Both will only be proficient in drawing those single subjects though.
    How can they compete in a commercial world with someone like me that knows both? This means not only I can draw landscapes or figures, I can combine these skills and put the life inside those landscapes.
    If I have a decent knowledge of perspective and architecture I can also put those into that cauldron opening up even more possibilities.
    This is why someone who knows all those things is a better artist than someone who only knows one.

    And again.
    During the years I encountered many who hid their disinterest for practicing the basics and the hard work needed using the argument "I'm not interested in realism, I like drawing stylized things, this is my style... I'm creative!". I always shut their mouth making them notice me having a generally classical training I can draw the same way they do without much effort, the same isn't true for them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  7. doobiedoobiedum

    doobiedoobiedum Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    We’re back to what drawing is for and who it is for. A “chicken scratch” portrait of a figure or a nude is “a pretty good indication of lack of drawing skills” however if we’re talking about someone on the production floor who is a designer, it is no indication whatsoever. Drawing skills are more about communicating your ideas or solving manufacture problems than drawing pretty pictures. And before you or Azzart says it – yes, someone with high drawing skills will always do a better drawing but you know as well as I do that it’s not the most fundamental importance of drawing in this scenario.

    Look at “on-set”, thinking storyboard drawings for most films – those drawings are / were chicken scratches. Then when the book of the film is made, the original storyboards are often given to an illustrator to make the pretty version of the drawing which is then sold as a glossy book. No film production is going to halt filming while the artist tries to produce a high detail drawing. Same in industry – if there is an error in the detail or something to be resolved on a building site – you are not going to put 20 high paid construction workers on hold while the artist draws pretty clouds on the drawing of where an exterior panel needs to be cut.

    This happened to me when I worked at a major design studio in the early 90’s – I was hired in freelance to produce visualisations, solve ergonomics and stylistic design problems on a train for Swedish rail and then at the end of the project a professional illustrator was hired in to do the pretty drawing. As a recent automotive graduate I said I could do the illustration but it was explained that 1) the illustrator could work faster on fancy illustrations than I could and 2) I was hired in for the design problems and he was in for the showy bit. Made a lot of sense as the critical design problems had to be solved first.

    If someone wants to be a commercial figurative style illustrator, I fully expect that illustrator to be conversant with a huge range of basic visual skills including formal visual language / figurative drawing etc etc. YOU with the greatest of respect however are never going to be able to “design” ergonomic furniture or a power tool or a user interface etc to the same level and skill as a specialist designer. Then when that work is done – an illustrator may be hired in to produce the fancy illustrated version for public consumption.

    You as an illustrator will be able to draw trees and record the number or style of leaves it has and volumetric lighting or a face with all the warts and wrinkles but an artist will explore the emotions on that face, the inner struggles or complex feelings that face may hold from the life they have lived. Similarly, an artist like Turner won’t draw like an illustrator but they will try to convey the feel of wind on your face or the impending loss of that vegetation to urbanisation.

    I’m trying not to disrespect any areas of art but having had experience of industry / clients and production and then as a teacher – the world of fine art: I have begun to see the range of breadth and areas that visual creatives are hired in and for. I see a place for figurative objective drawing but it is not the only way that drawing should be judged or taught.
     
  8. Azzart

    Azzart Late night illustrator Senior Member

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    Undoubtedly.
    That's why I'm what in the English language is called an artist and an industrial designer isn't. Last time I checked in university in Milan they don't even need to be able to draw beyond a very basic level.
    Just like an architect.
    Or a mechanical engineer.
     
  9. doobiedoobiedum

    doobiedoobiedum Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I'll send them a 4 part DVD of the BBC series "the secret of drawing" one day if I can find an Italian language version. All four are on Youtube but only in English.
     

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