Intel News

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Steve S, May 3, 2021.

  1. sonichedgehog360

    sonichedgehog360 New forum: bit.ly/newTPCR Senior Member

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  2. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    E core IPC is too damn low to be useful for E core only SKU. You need minimum of 4P+6E to be competitive for 15W SKU. 2P+4E for 7W SKU. Both will far exceed those TDP ratings when pushed.

    Remember that they sh.tcanned their 1P+4E core SKU less than a year after intro. It was too big and expensive for power it provided. Couldn't outperform 2P 7W SKU while being the same die size. Maybe thing would have been different under Win11 scheduler, but problem is it was about 4 years too late to compete with Apple and other top ARM SoC.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2021
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  3. Marty

    Marty Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    So what do you think their strategy in the laptop market will be?

    It seems odd Intel would launch Alder Lake E cores in a state of having low IPC and high TDP. Remember they just put out a big press event claiming 1/4 power consumption under multi-threaded load:

    (WCCFTech)
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Eltos

    Eltos Scribbler - Standard Member

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    AMD has to take this over, no? Or does microsoft take another crack at ARM support?
     
  5. sonichedgehog360

    sonichedgehog360 New forum: bit.ly/newTPCR Senior Member

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    If the Zen 4 IPC rumor is true and the source who provided it is reputable, then we will be seeing a massive 29% IPC improvement over Zen 3. That alone will destroy Alder Lake while offering significantly better power levels.
     
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  6. sonichedgehog360

    sonichedgehog360 New forum: bit.ly/newTPCR Senior Member

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    This actually is totally legitimate but the truth is they are still far off from Apple and AMD. This same approach is what Apple is doing in pipeline except Intel is applying it to cores. The approach is this: go wide and low. In Intel's case, if you increase the core count from 8 cores to 16, then you can scale down that 16-core processor in voltage and see performance comparable to that 8-core processor at significantly lower power. The idea is as you make your design wider, you can lower the clock speed and lower the voltage and thereby you significantly decrease power consumption. It is all because the V^2 (voltage squared) in the power equation (P=V^2/R) means voltage has such an impact (exponential curve) that even the smallest decrease in voltage can massively reduce power draw.

    Therefore, it is the end goal in modern processor design to have more transistors working at lower power while shying away from few transistors working at higher power to achieve the same compute performance. Apple is currently the master at this technique with an ultra-wide pipeline that can operate at the industry's lowest performance per watt. The problem for Alder Lake in regards to here is that AMD's Ryzen 7 5700G is a far smaller 8-core processor and it already achieves performance roughly commensurate with the Core i9-11900K at just 65W. As a result, AMD's Zen 3 is more efficient architecturally because Intel's Alder Lake has to have a larger 16-core design compared to AMD's Zen 3 8-core.

    There are 12.6 billion transistors in Alder Lake compared to 10.7 billion which is already in AMD's favor in the Ryzen 7 5700G. However, additionally in AMD's favor, a far larger ratio of its transistors are reserved its enormous integrated graphics and much less so to the CPU. That means that given the higher transistor ratio dedicated to the CPU blocks and the larger transistor count, the CPU design is far more inefficient on Intel's side. This equates to significantly more cores required to achieve the same performance/power ratio as AMD's Zen 3, revealing severe architectural inefficiencies.

    That is the basis of my concern with Alder Lake in a mobile design. As a result of these inefficiencies that can hide behind the cooling system coattails of high-end desktops, Alder Lake's mobile launch will go one of two ways: either we will see marginal gains and a ho-hum launch from manufacturers lowering the TDP to sustainable levels, or we will see massive power increases leading to hot and throttling products with middling battery life ending in an epic fail of a launch.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2021
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  7. Eltos

    Eltos Scribbler - Standard Member

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    So does the surface line go AMD next year? Hmmm...
     
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  8. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    I think E cores helps Intel in multicore benchmarks like geekbench 5 to catch up and maybe even pass AMD's homogenous cores approach and Apple's heterogenous approach. For immediate future, that's enough for them.

    For long term Intel gonna have to figure out how to catch up in process shrink and to architecturally make their power cores more efficient. Apples approach is to throw transistors and cache at the problem to make their ARM cores out perform Intel and AMDs x86 cores. Both AMD and Intel can follow in that route but both then has to deal with their fab situation (Intel getting their sh.t in gear and AMD fighting for wafers with Apple and everyone else from TSMC).
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2021
  9. desertlap

    desertlap Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    So we are still evaluating Alder Lake, but initial results are really impressive and represent a strong come back for intel (just in time IMHO given what AMD and Apple have been doing).

    But OTOH, it's stuff like this that make up my support nightmares and also really ticks me off. And it is completely avoidable IMHO.

    And of course, when I brought a system home for my gamer son to try out, Mortal Kombat and Jedi Fallen Order were the first games he wanted to try.

    Intel: These 50+ PC Games Are Incompatible with 'Alder Lake' CPUs Due to DRM | PCMag

    TLDR: DRM is the scourge of tech!
     
  10. Marty

    Marty Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    I get the power-saving principle of parallelization at lower clocks/voltages, but why then are the strength of E cores seemingly in high frequency/voltage scenarios at much higher power consumption levels?

    That runs counter to the stated design goals of hybrid architecture (efficiency and thermal design flexibility) which should actually excel in mobile. Why would Intel target for just ho-hum power/performance in the laptop space (especially with M1 Pro/Max setting records), when they've hyped up the efficiency gains so much?

    Something isn't adding up...
     
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