HP Pavilion 11 x2

Discussion in 'Hewlett Packard' started by fatxander, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. jtsmall

    jtsmall Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Initial comparison tests Pavilion 11 X2 Haswell Core i5-4202Y and Envy X2 Clovertrail Atom Z2760

    PC Mark7 v1.4.0 Pavilion 11 x 2 Haswell Core i5-4202Y HD 4200 ........ score 4149
    PC Mark7 v1.4.0 Lenovo notebook Sandy Bridge i5-2410M HD 3000 .... score 4385
    PC Mark7 ......... Dell Venue 11 Pro Bay Trail Atom Z3770 .................. score 2670

    The Lenovo notebook's (8 GB RAM) PC Mark7 score, from the FutureMark site, was used for comparison as I am familiar with this processor in a Toshiba R835-P70 (4 GB RAM) thin and light. It cranks through Lightroom and Photoshop without difficulty. LIghtroom ran acceptably on the Pentium N3520 equipped version of the Pavilion 11 x2. I would have kept it excepting only one battery and the battery run time was consistently in the 4.5 hour range only.

    UPDATE: Chippy at UMPC Portal has a newly posted comprehensive review of the Dell Venue 11 Pro including CrystalDiskMark and PC Mark 7 scores, the latter of which has been added above. This particular tablet has proved to be popular given its light weight, long battery life (if the keyboard dock is used) and hybrid design. His review can be found here and is worth reading for his practical description of benchmarks ...

    http://www.umpcportal.com/2014/04/dell-venue-11-pro-baytrail-tablet-and-tablet-keyboard-review/

    Another benchmark Chippy presents is Sunspider 1.0.2, and is a measure of efficiency in browsing the web. A lower number of milliseconds is better. A more detailed explanation can be found here http://www.webkit.org/perf/sunspider/sunspider.html

    145 ms Pavilion 11 x 2 Haswell Core i5-4202Y HD 4200
    508 ms Dell Venue 11 Pro Bay Trail Atom Z3770


    In both the two benchmarks below the better score goes to the i5 over the Z2760, which of course is to be expected. The plan is to post various benchmarks with some commentary and then, if useful, pull it together after a reasonable period of hands on with the Pavilion 11 X2. Comments and suggestions likely will be a great help as technology per se is is not my full time job, but the practical use of the right technology is.

    I am somewhat perplexed that this series of hybrid releases by HP has garnered essentially no attention by the tech press outside the initial hands on during the various tech shows over this past winter of 2013-14. It seems to me this series is a learning experience for HP to see what form factors are the most useful and sell well. That's not any different in kind from other notable OEM and mainstream companies like ASUS, Acer, Lenovo, Dell, etc. With the introduction of tablets into the market dating with the original iPad we've had a multitude of form factors. This is similar to the introduction of the original PC by IBM, preceded itself by DR's CP/M devices and Gates scoop of Digital Research when IBM was casting about for an OS to run their PC. The next step was the transition to practical mobile computers by Compaq, a TI spin off of sorts, which lead to another round of experimentation. Without doubt, during this period I returned laptop after laptop as inadequate in numerous ways. Eventually, in my case, both TI and Toshiba cracked the code with light footprint clam shell models that really worked, were highly mobile and continue to the present day.

    Clearly we are reluctant to forsake the clam shell whole cloth in our new rush to the tablet, or so-called, post PC era. This is not the first such transition clearly. In my mind, the real post PC era was the transition from the original PC design, albeit highly evolved, to the mobile laptop. I would call our present era the post laptop era, but of course Steve Jobs was still marketing the highly acclaimed MBA and MBP, so it is understandable that he would deflect this transition away from those products and on to the back of his nemesis, hence the term 'post PC era' stuck. But it is wrong headed and misleading.

    Every major player has both standalone tablets and hybrids that in numerous imaginative ways combine the tablet with the clamshell laptop. Regardless of how this particular hands on turns out, I can scare believe that I have in my lap - or in my hands sans keyboard dock - a device so competent as this. It is light, it is color with excellent viewing angles and clarity, fast and very fast for any practical application and, best of all, highly graphical and not merely all ASCI text. All for the current asking price in this inflated age of a mere $600. A far cry from both my original CP/M S-100 iron or the European vacation sized Kaypro 10 with a whopping 64 kb RAM, a speedy 4 MHz Z80 processor and a cavernous 10 MB hard drive. Oh, no battery - must be plugged into the wall when used.

    So, coming full circle why ignore HP's efforts with the Pavilion 11 X2 series which are clearly cost efficacious and reasonably competent?

    -jts
     

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    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  2. Analytical Guy

    Analytical Guy Pen Pal - Newbie

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    jtsmall,

    Thanks for checking in with some benchmarks. I'm having a little trouble comparing apples to apples, but I'll try pasting from an earlier post of yours...

    If you look at CPU Mark scores
    i5-4200U = 3321 typical Ultrabook
    i5-4202Y = not reported but > 4210Y
    i5-4210Y = 2247
    N3520 = 1894
    Z3770 = 1326 Venue 11 Pro
    Z3740 = 1062 T100, Venue 8 Pro
    Z2760 = 1062 Envy X2

    and from your post today...

    PC Mark7 v1.4.0 Pavilion 11 x 2 Haswell Core i5-4202Y ..... score 4149


    Is that Apples to Apples? Your new Pavilion gets a 4149 on the same test where an Asus T100 gets a 1062? Four times as high? And it also scores three times as high as the Dell Venue 11 Pro Bay Trail?

    That's pretty impressive! I knew the Asus T100 was on the slow side, but I assumed the Dell Venue 11 Pro was much quicker. (Maybe when they release one with 4GB of RAM?)


    You also said:
    I am somewhat perplexed that this series of hybrid releases by HP has garnered essentially no attention by the tech press outside the initial hands on during the various tech shows over this past winter of 2013-14.


    I've read about several HP releases, when I was following CES and MWC coverage. But they do seem focused on the brand new HP machines -- the ElitePad 1000, the ProPad 600, and the Pavilion x360. I could easily see where the tech press would focus all their attention on the shiny new machines put out on display for them.

    On the other hand, HP almost seems to be trying to hide this particular upgrade (from Pentium to i5). Any search I do for this model points to older reviews, where people were playing with the Pentium (and mostly declaring it not worth its asking price). I have only heard about this i5 in two places:

    1. this thread (which seems to have about four active participants at any time), and
    2. the Microsoftstore site, which I reached by way of a Slickdeals link which set my hopes high for a $499 price.

    Neither of those seem like they would catch the attention of the tech press like a booth at CES.

    I don't know why HP isn't making a little more noise about this machine. Maybe HP doesn't want to anger Office Depot and other stores who are still trying to sell the Pentium for nearly the price of this i5...?


    Anyway, please let me know if I'm correctly understanding your numbers. I'm trying to figure out just how thoroughly your new Pavilion x2 stomps both my current machines and the 4GB Bay Trails that I'm considering next.
     
  3. jtsmall

    jtsmall Scribbler - Standard Member

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    1) The PC Mark7 scores can be found here PCMark 7 - Best Windows PC Benchmark Test

    If you recheck the last message above you will find a comparsion score of the Pavilion with a Sandy Bridge Core i5 that is very fast in my hands for everyday tasks.

    2) The PassMark (what I misleadingly called CPU Mark - post now corrected) scores can be found here PassMark - CPU Benchmarks - List of Benchmarked CPUs

    The Pavilion 11 X2 (Haswell Core i5-4202Y) PassMark score is 2680 Performance Mode (2593 Balanced Mode).

    The Toshiba R835-P70's Sandy Bridge Core i5-2410M has a PassMark score of 3177, which as you can see, is slightly less, but more or less on par, with the Haswell i5-4200U low voltage cpu popular with the current generation of Ultrabooks. For the Core series each successive generation is about 10% faster than the last one. It's not suprising that the Sandy Bridge remains competitive with the Haswell by this benchmark. However the Haswell is a smaller processor, uses less power and remains cooler, as is required for the closed design of a Ultrabook.

    PC Mark7 and PassMark are two different scores and are only comparable with those devices using the same test. The first is system oriented, the second one is processor oriented as I understand it. This is of course the reason that Anandtech, Tom's Hardware and others use multiple benchmarks rather than just a single test in detailed performance analysis.

    -jts

    Addendum 4/25/14 PassMark Score for the i5-4202Y Pavilion 11 X2 added above.

    We now have a set of PassMark CPU scores to compare (apples to apples)

    i5-4200U = 3321 Typical Ultrabook
    i5-2420M = 3177 Toshiba R835-P70 Thin & Light 13.3"

    i5-4202Y = 2680 HP Pavilion 11 X2
    i5-4210Y = 2247 Dell Venue 11 Pro

    N3520 = 1894 HP Pavilion 11 X2 Bay Trail (Pentium) variant

    Z3770 = 1326 Dell Venue 11 Pro
    Z3740 = 1062 ASUS T100, Dell Venue 8 Pro
    Z2760 = 679 HP Envy X2
    (Corrected from 1062 original post)

    Note: Divisions above are for ease of viewing and only loosely imply different classes of performance. In fact, the Pavilion 11 X2 (i5-4202Y) feels as fast, even faster with I/O, than my higher PassMark CPU rated Toshiba R835!

    Below is the summary chart for the PassMark (Full) Performance Test of the Pavilion 11 X2 running in balanced mode.

    PassMark Balanced Test 8.JPG
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  4. jtsmall

    jtsmall Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Brief Update Note

    The PassMark CPU score has been posted for the Haswell Core i5-4202Y in messages #56 and #73. This provides a reasonable basis for comparison between competing processor configurations, specifically the Core i5-4202Y ULV and Pentium N3520 variants plus additional processors for perspective.

    The performance I'm seeing in everyday tasks has been superb and the battery life as expected falling between the Envy X2 and the Pentium equipped Pavilion 11 X2. This Core X2 variant has performed without hesitations with the exception of the HP Support Assistant, which takes its time as usual (albeit the HPSA still beats a manual search for updates).

    To date I have found no deal breakers and I'm prepared to conclude this is the sweet spot in cost versus performance and mobility in a 2 in 1 hybrid (transformer) today. My copy feels subjectively as fast as my Thin & Light Toshiba R835-P70 laptop/notebook with Sandy Bridge Core i5-2410M processor, 4 GB RAM and 5200 RPM HD, indeed noticeably exceeding it in disk I/O (eg. software installation) as expected.

    Those interested in this form factor and price ($600 from the Microsoft Store at the time of this writing) should definitely put this model at the top of their list.

    -jts
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  5. jtsmall

    jtsmall Scribbler - Standard Member

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    These are working review notes and on re-reading just now it seems they may be useful to some just the way they are. I am not trying to replace Anandtech or Notebookcheck.net's reviews after all.

    Pavilion 11 X2 Haswell Core i5-45202Y ULV variant (comparisons are generally to the Envy X2)

    1. Screen (Ultra Wide Angle TFT) less bright than the Envy X2 (IPS), and so more power must be thrown into it, but the colors and viewing angles are comparable and I would otherwise think it an IPS LCD.

    2. Touchpad has a looseness to it, feels cheap to my touch when tapping to select - update: still feels that way by and large compared the Envy X2 but it's not a deal breaker. The looseness is likely related to the flex at the bottom of the pad required for this Apple-like design sans left and right selection keys. However, same as the Envy but less well implemented on the Pavilion.

    3. The keyboard has appropriate key travel, is springy but has a hollow sound to it that seems cheap. Later, feels good on extended use and not cheap but that was my initial impression. I suppose my fingers just needed time to adjust to this keyboard, which is a common comment by other reviewers of other keyboards.

    4. Wifi radio is single band only at 2.5 GHz. I'd consider opening up the tablet to exchange the radio, but that will likely be way more complex than on a standard laptop with access. It might be easier to add a usb dongle if 5 GHz is ever required, usually due to congestion on the 2.5 GHz band.

    5. The charging connector to the keyboard dock seems much more secure than the one on the Envy X2. However the Envy X2's connector is more likely to come out if the cord is accidently pulled but with the Pavilion the more secure connector is likely to break and/or pull the base to the floor. Again, an example of engineering trade offs and not a defect.

    6. Compared to the Clovertrail Atom Z2760 in th envy I'm seeing roughly about 3x the discharge rate with the Pavilion: -7 watts compared to -2 with the full battery run time (I'm estimating) about 1/2 to 1/3 that of the Envy, again roughly. Still this is a marked improvement over the Pentium N3520 variation with that single battery and so far I think workable in my use case. Later- the run time is adequate for day's routine use in balanced mode and I'll see how battery saver works out. The Pentium N3520 variant required battery saver mode to reach about 1/2 the total run time I'm seeing on the Core i5 variant using balance mode.

    7. Unlike the aluminum Envy, the Pavilion case is a fingerprint magnet. The polycarbonate case lacks the cool factor but an argument can be made it's actually more protective in a drop as it will absorb energy, albeit likely breaking and requiring replacement if unsightly.

    8. The exterior case of the top lid has a visible crease (when closed, lower mid to right area, may require bright light at oblique projection to see clearly) like a metal automobile fender that has been bent. My guess is a component is out of spec or not properly installed as the case is otherwise too well done to think it an engineering oversight, more likely a quality control issue. Not noticeable without the proper lighting and viewing angle. This might prove to be a cause to seek an exchange.

    9. Miracast is wonky. It worked fine for a 1.5 hr Youtube video but then dropped and when repairing it now wants a PIN number instead of the security code the device (Netgear Push2TV3000) initially supplied (and thereafter not expected to be required when using the same Windows 8.1 device) to enter in Windows 8.1. I'm in the process of upgrading the P2TV firmware, etc. and it's turning into a hassle. For a bit of insight into the likelihood that Miracast is imperfectly implemented in Windows 8.1 see http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-81-miracast

    To be fair, Miracast is wonky on my Samsung Galaxy Note 2 and, indeed, WiDi is funky on my Toshiba R835-P70 i5 laptop. I like wireless to the large flat screen when it's working. I'm wondering if too many wifi devices at hand are introducing interference rather than a WiDi for Miracast issue per se.

    10. Installed Adobe Lightroom 5. Now my neck is sore as the PX2-i5 cuts through development of 16 MP RAW files like 'crap through a goose' to paraphrase General Patton! This has cost me another expense as I must change out the HD in the Toshiba R835-P70 i5-2410M and replace it with a real SSD. I've been putting off the upgrade but this has been a real eye opener. I'm glad I waited this long before I did too as Michelle, my wife and an avid photorapher, will want one too!

    11. I generally keep my computers even when obsolete. This one is the keeper of them all regardless of price!

    12. Final thoughts go here, right? I can realistically wish for only two improvements to what at $600 must be HP's return to significance. No need to keep churning out X2 variations either. A dual band wifi radio would add such a small amount, say a dollar or two for an OEM but value considerably beyond that for me given the ubiquity of wireless connectivity. Second, I'd appreciate a track pad equal to the Envy X2's, which is in a word, outstanding. Next to the excellent LCD it's the most used interface and along with the keyboard deserves to be first rate for any mobile computer. In the end I quickly adjusted to the keyboard and can think of nothing else to add.

    Oh yes, that $100 Microsoft rebate for my obsolete Windows XP zombie which the MS Store both agreed to and subsequently denied. A poor showing for the store in this regard.

    Nonetheless, I give this highly mobile hybrid, that will have no need to go looking for an outlet at every stop, a rating of highly recommended and a steal at the current asking price of $600.

    -jts


    UPDATE 5/5/2014

    13. The speakers on this tablet prove to be more than adequate. I dislike throwing out the adjective 'awesome' but it does apply here. The speakers render voice in all its natural tonality including the base frequencies. In this regard this model greatly improves on the Envy X2 by comparison. The volume also goes loud, surprisingly loud. Another earlier problem that HP got right on this model!

    14. Windows 8's battery monitor is proving more accurate in most cases (but not always) than the third party Battery Care application. This may be partly arising from the dual battery configuration of this hybrid. Especially when away from a nearby wall plug having a reasonably accurate estimate to remaining battery time is desirable and it appears HP and Windows 8 deliver.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
  6. jtsmall

    jtsmall Scribbler - Standard Member

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    All the major players reviewed the HP Envy X2, then a lesser number reviewed the follow up Pavilion X2 and almost to a reviewer considered only 13.3" version, not all negatively. Fortunately one of the technically best review sites did do the Pentium N3510 and that can be found here ...

    Review HP Pavilion 11-h000sg Convertible - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

    The review is balanced but I find the verdict a bit odd in the sense the weight was seen as a negative with a nod to the ASUS T100 as lighter and less expensive. However my take is just the opposite on both counts. Furthermore I have used the ASUS Transformer Prime extensively (now awaiting ASUS's long delayed Android update, which is a downside to any Android device excepting the NEXUS line that we are free from with Windows) and the heavier weight of the aluminum case gives a solid, robust and satisfying feel to that device compared to the toy-like feel of both the keyboard and case of the T100. However both the T100 and Transformer Prime are 10.1" devices and sport the same size small keyboard. For a touch typist the generous keyboards of HP Envy and Pavilion X2 11.6" devices are considerably more satisfying to. Bottom line here is each person must make up their own mind on keyboards, case construction and weight. I should mention both the Transformer Prime and the Envy X2 tend to tip over easily and this is essential a non issue for the Pavilion X2 in my hands even though this model feels to be identical weight as the Envy X2.

    The trump card remains that the $600 Pavilion 11 X2, with the Haswell Core i5-4202Y and HD 4200 GPU, is a significantly advanced computing device compared to the Bay Trail Atom and Pentium processors as born out in the post above tabulating PassMark CPU scores in descending order.

    Notebookcheck.net's review of the Envy X2 is here and I recommend a read for comparison purposes ...

    Review HP Envy x2 11-g000eg Tablet - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

    Unfortunately notebookcheck.net has not reviewed the Pavilion 11 X2 with the 4202Y processor, however they have discussed this processor extensively and that is found here ...

    Intel Core i5 4202Y Notebook Processor - NotebookCheck.net Tech

    It's not all bad news. They have reviewed the HP Spectre 13 X2 model that runs the 4202Y processor and HD 4200 GPU and that provides useful insight, particularly as to the games the GPU can run acceptably ...

    Review HP Spectre 13-h205eg x2 Convertible - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

    Finally, for our purposes, on MobileTechReview Lisa delivered a positive review of the HP 13 Split X2 even though it is significantly heavier, bulkier and with a lesser processor ...

    HP Split x2 Review - Windows 8 Convertible Laptop Reviews by MobileTechReview

    I believe the composite of these reviews goes a long way to fill in the blanks and still, it would be great to have available several high quality reviews of the Pavilion 11 X2 with i5-4202Y processor! What I would give to see Anand weigh in with his technically exhaustive analysis and final thoughts!

    -jts
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  7. jtsmall

    jtsmall Scribbler - Standard Member

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    After re-reading the articles quoted in subsequent posts to your question I believe you are correct and the Pavilion 11 X2 with the Pentium N3520 processor did indeed have a real so-called flash SSD and not an eMMC. In retrospect I should have run a benchmark and that would have put this issue to rest.

    *********************************************************************
    UPDATE on the SSD issue 5/2/2014

    According to notebookcheck.net the N3510 (so I presume the same unit with the slightly upgraded N3520 processor) does not have the same type SSD as modern notebooks or an Ultrabook for that matter (see quote in the paragraph directly below). The Pavilion 11 X2 with i5-4202Y processor has the SanDisk SD6SN1M-128G-1006 (128 GB SSD). I believe it's an OEM 2.5" cased (and mSATA customized form factor) SanDisk X110 SATA 3.1 (6 Gb/s) SSD as seen here http://www.sandisk.com/products/ssd/sata/x110/

    "The [Pavilion 11 X2 with N3510 processor is equipped with a] 64 GB SSD (LITEONIT L8T-64L6G-HP) allows fast initializations and copy processes. Apparently LiteOn produces this chip specifically for HP. Admittedly, the memory reads and writes not as fast as modern mid- and upper-range SSDs in notebooks (mSATA or SATA 2.5-inch models), but in some measurements it is significantly faster than the mentioned eMMC competition in the Transformer T100TA & Co. This is quite impressive and one reason to partly justify the high price.'

    From the aforementioned review (message #76 directly above) http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-HP-Pavilion-11-h000sg-Convertible.114561.0.html

    **********************************************************************

    As an excuse for this oversight, at the time it was unclear if that model had one or two batteries and I had assumed two. I tried to make it two, but alas, in the end it was clear HP had produced a single battery model.

    I was at a complete loss as to why and returned the hybrid essentially for this reason. Of course that was a stroke of good luck that it had only a single battery as subsequently the Pavilion 11 X2 with i5-4202Y and TWO BATTERIES proved to be a gem.

    Thanks for pointing out this error.

    -jts

    Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with either HP or Microsoft.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  8. Analytical Guy

    Analytical Guy Pen Pal - Newbie

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    I'm a little bummed. For at least a few minutes today, the $100 discount became available again -- this time by typing in the code "GRADUATION."

    However, if you snooze, you lose. I snost, and I lost. By the time I got myself online to pull the trigger, the site was sold out of Pavilion x2's!

    Note: If the x2 comes back into stock, the deal might still apply. The website didn't quibble about "combining discounts." Nor did it ask for proof that I was actually buying the machine for a graduate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014
  9. jtsmall

    jtsmall Scribbler - Standard Member

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    FWIW, I fully agree with the recently posted single review on the MS Store listing. I find it a continued puzzle that no one else is selling this model according to a simple Google on 'Pavilion 11-h112nr'. When I ordered my copy two weeks ago I was told that this model is selling briskly without returns. Perhaps MS has an exclusive or rather, there was a limited production run? Either way, this seems odd. Wrap this model in aluminum for a minimal price increase and I'd wager HP couldn't make them fast enough!

    As an update, after cycling the batteries according to the instructions by Battery Care I saw in excess of 8 hours battery life in balanced mode, slightly more in power saver mode. It will take a bit more usage to fully estimate life but in routine use I'm seeing a full day and 2 - 3 days, possible more, of light use.

    One can sleep it for ongoing intermittent use and both hibernate or a boot from shutting Windows down is a snap (5 seconds more or less) so which of these two is selected becomes a matter of preference. If what I'm working on is important to continue in another session I use hibernate, otherwise I simple choose shut down. In either there should be no battery drain and so far in sleep the battery drain appears negligible with no pause on returning to use, as in connected standby with the Envy X2.

    URL for Battery Care: batterycare.net

    -jts

    UPDATE 5/2/2014

    After two calibration cycles with Battery Care desktop application I'm seeing 10:57 (hr:min) of battery run time at 100% charge in power saver mode.

    That's likely optimistic but reassuring. I have yet to experience battery paranoia (eg. constantly searching for a power outlet) as I did with the single battery N3520 variant.

    UPDATE 5/6/2014

    Yesterday saw 8 hours of battery life (4:30 pm - 12:30 am) starting at 100% charge without AC, shut down or hibernation until reaching 5% via both Battery Care and Windows Battery.

    Power was set to balanced and most with a mix of surfing and YouTube (multiple 10-30 min videos) with 2 hours of Adobe Lightroom 5 and Photoshop CC RAW development at high power setting. There was minimal sleep, perhaps an hour total more or less. Screen brightness varied from roughly 40-50% (visual analog scale).

    Performance was typically snappy without lags. Wifi home router feed by local ISP on fiberoptic internet at a nominal 20 Mbps download.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  10. jtsmall

    jtsmall Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Last edited: May 3, 2014

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