Fall Creators Update 1709 issues

Discussion in 'Windows 10' started by WillAdams, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. WillAdams

    WillAdams Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I learned my pen habits starting with PenPoint and Apple's Newton MessagePad, thank you very much.

    It should function like a pointing device, and catering to naïve users and fostering their carelessness and inattentiveness does not increase the expressiveness of the interface.

    One can already scroll with a touch, so there's no gain in the pen doing so.
     
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  2. Marty

    Marty Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Can you explain more? Making the pen act like a finger, doesn't make it act like more like a pen. :vbconfused:

    So would you say this is the future design impetus at Microsoft? Will we see other mainstay features like the command line being removed, simply because of these "usability studies"?

    If this is the case, I'm going to prepare my migration to Linux starting today. (And I am not joking.)
     
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  3. stormi

    stormi Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Fully agree with @Marty 's posts, they put it straight...

    Also some good posts over at the Windows developer forums:

    MM J. (Feb 2, 2018):
    Andrew M. (Feb 2, 2018):
    No new feedback from MS since january 17th...

    However a new collection on the Feedback Hub was created with already 202 upvotes:
    https://aka.ms/Ag310s - Add an option to Pen Settings to turn off pen scrolling
     
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  4. Selofain

    Selofain Chronic Lurker

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    Gotta be honest, it really cheeses me off that they went and asked a bunch of people who don't use pens how they would use a pen. They've probably only been exposed to the Galaxy Note pen, or even the ipad pro pencil. Of course the pen acts like a finger in those, since pen integration in mobile OS is basically non-existent. Unlike Windows.

    Yeah, I totally remember all the times I used my pencil to turn the pages of my textbook. So pen, much wow.

    Meanwhile, they just pissed off everyone who actually uses the pen, many of whom depend on the pen behaving in certain ways that are now broken.

    Apple is not a good look on you, Microsoft. Don't do it. Don't.
     
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  5. jnjroach

    jnjroach Surface MVP Super Moderator

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    I agree but I don't make these decisions - just report what I know :)

    It has a response to people who wanted something to replace pen flicks is my understanding.

    CMD will be replaced with PowerShell eventually and most likely only available on Pro or Enterprise SKUs w/o S Mode activated.
     
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  6. Marty

    Marty Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Can you explain more about MS' rationale of treating the pen as touch in non-Windows Ink aware apps?

    I mean if we are really being literal about treating the pen "like a pen", then the default behavior in Edge should be to mark up the webpage—not scroll.

    MS' implementation is not even consistent with its own design objectives!

    And in non-Inking contexts where the OS has to translate pen input to either touch or mouse, isn't the precision point of the pen much closer in nature to the mouse cursor, rather than to a fat finger tip?

    From a functional perspective, how is it not redundant to make the pen act as another finger, when you can simply extend the fingers holding the pen to touch the screen?

    If you could shed light on any of these questions, I would be deeply appreciative. Most of the time, I can fathom the thinking behind MS' more baffling UX decisions, but in this case, I truly cannot.
     
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  7. ATIVQ

    ATIVQ V⅁O⅄ Senior Member

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    I could live with inking-by-default, but that would make the pen inconsistent on apps that don't support inking. Pen-as-mouse-cursor is the sanest choice. Pen-as-a-finger makes no sense.

    Brought to you by the same thinking that led Microsoft to treat a finger like a mouse cursor in early tablet PCs.
     
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  8. Steve S

    Steve S Pen Pro - Senior Member Super Moderator

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    <<...I agree but I don't make these decisions - just report what I know...>>

    ...Quite so. Nothing personal intended in my earlier remark.
     
  9. jnjroach

    jnjroach Surface MVP Super Moderator

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    Of course - no worries (no offense was taken - I just need to remind people I don't work for MS) :)
     
  10. jhoff80

    jhoff80 Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    What's weird about it is that there was a strong push a few years back (maybe at the original Surface Pro unveiling? I can't quite remember when) about the pen needing to always put down ink. I remember Microsoft talking about how the pen was confusing to new users in mixed scenarios because it didn't always do the same thing, so they were pushing to make it more consistently put down ink on the screen whenever you touched the pen to the screen... basically what Steve S has described.

    ...And yet now they're blurring the line between pen and touch in some areas of the OS (like making the pen scroll by default in the browser), and in other areas of the OS they're doing stuff that makes the pen functionality more distinct. But I guess at this point, running around in circles is turning into Microsoft's truest forte. :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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