Fall Creators Update 1709 issues

Discussion in 'Windows 10' started by WillAdams, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. WillAdams

    WillAdams Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Yeah, I really wish the ReactOS folks would get some traction, and a decent Wacom driver. Still really bummed I couldn't get Mac OS X 10.6.8 to run on my Fujitsu Stylistic (should probably try tracking down an ST5101) or the TabletMagic tool to work w/ my ThinkPad X61T.

    Probably my next machine will be Android or a ChromeOS book, or I'll make good on my threat and quit using computers and switch over to woodworking w/ hand tools only.
     
  2. Marty

    Marty Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Sure it's at: https://aka.ms/G0yjzl.

    No response from MS so far is quite troubling...these guys are supposed to pen buffs themselves right?

    Can the Surface team even stomach the new changes? :confused:
     
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  3. stormi

    stormi Scribbler - Standard Member

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    @Marty Thanks.

    I tried to gather as much info about this a possible.

    At the Microsoft developer site here is the only recent feedback from some Microsoft guy I found: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/issues/14277341/

    Back in november the official response wasn't very promising (as already stated by @Marty here):

    James M. (Nov 4, 2017):
    These more recent repys show that there is at least a little bit of hope that Microsoft will change their mind.
    James M. (Dec 23, 2017):
    James M. (Jan 3, 2018):
    David A. (Jan 17, 2018):
    Here's another discussion about it and the issues (with less helpful feedback): https://techcommunity.microsoft.com...y-has-Creators-Update-Fall-treated/m-p/133697

    Summary of some of the issues by PocketNow: http://pocketnow.com/2017/07/29/windows-10-fall-creators-update


    Original topic on the MS feedback hub where some guy wanted to be able to scroll with the pen: https://aka.ms/Tv2ss0
    and got direct feedback from MS:
    The whole topic "collection" only got 19 upvotes till today.

    And now a whole storm of posts on the feedback hub after the change in FCU I was able to find in quick time and even the first already got 202 upvotes and not a single *beep* from MS on any of these:

    Main collections about the issue:
    https://aka.ms/Ag310s - Add an option to Pen Settings to turn off pen scrolling
    https://aka.ms/Id0y46 - Hinzufügen einer Option zu Stifteinstellungen zum Deaktivieren des Stift-Scrollens

    Other:
    https://aka.ms/Xn1hac - 1709: Pen now treated like touch - bad idea IMHO
    https://aka.ms/U7jlgd - Provide settings toggle to revert pen behaviour to mouse instead of touch
    https://aka.ms/S0ak7j - Pen issues after Fall Creators update
    https://aka.ms/Bf3peu - Scrolling with pen issues after Fall Creators update
    https://aka.ms/Senlr6 - Can't drag/drop items anymore because of the pen scrolling "feature." Please disable it!
    https://aka.ms/Cth1bj - Can't rearrange live tiles because of pen scrolling "feature"
    https://aka.ms/Bb4qu2 - Stifteingabe - Scrollen mit Stift ausschalten
    https://aka.ms/Bzsa3g - Broken Stylus behaviour in Fall Creators update
    https://aka.ms/Rx0k5l - Don't use pen for ink until I manually choose an inking tool
    https://aka.ms/L3qw8q - Drawing mode automatically activates when using pen TURN THAT OFF!
    https://aka.ms/U7g3yd - Can't pan 360 photos after FCU update using pen
    https://aka.ms/Nm2ba8 - Can't scroll in OneNote because of pen scrolling feature
    https://aka.ms/Fg7wme - Always provide off switch for terrible new features
    https://aka.ms/Uu8i19 - With the newest update, I am no longer able to do the right-click with a pen
    https://aka.ms/Ry4l1x - right click does not open context menu and freezes website
    https://aka.ms/Rsnmc7 - Surface Pen Rechtsklick per Taste

    Please give each of the above feedbacks an upvote to bring them to more attention.
    We also should provide feedback directly to the Windows Ink team by contacting them via WindowsInk@microsoft.com
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
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  4. Marty

    Marty Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    For reference, here is an official explanation of the pen changes:

    (Jason Pus, Microsoft)
    "The Fall Creators Update implements a new interaction design to better utilize the features available to most pens in the marketplace. No pen behaviors were removed, but some actions have been reassigned to make pen behave more consistently across Windows. Previously, pen tip performed a wide variety of actions, from selection to drag-n-drop to content manipulation, while barrel button function was underutilized in the system. In the Fall Creators Update, we are making the barrel button more useful by assigning it selection and drag-n-drop functionality, while making the pen tip more useful for content manipulation, like scrolling. While these changes might seem uncomfortable at first, they make pen a more versatile tool that enhances current user experience and will enable future exciting experiences.
    [​IMG]
    Although pen is most useful for inking, in places where inking does not make sense or is not yet available, pen can now directly manipulate content the way your finger does. This functionality is available to most applications, such as File Explorer, Edge, or Start Menu, where you can now scroll without the help of a scrollbar and manipulate text selection through grippers. This change eliminates the need to hunt-and-peck for UI elements and prevents users from constantly switching between pen and other input modalities.

    Barrel button also gained meaning in the Fall Creators update. Now, no matter what you want to select within the system, whether it is text in Edge, ink in OneNote, or files in File Explorer, you can do it by pressing the barrel button and dragging. Drag-n-drop with the pen is just as easy – press the barrel button, grab an object with the pen tip, and drag it to a new location."

    I don't agree with the rationale at all: pen behavior was consistent before, with the tip acting as a mouse left click and barrel button for right click.

    Making the pen tip act as a finger on any touchscreen device is completely redundant, because your fingers holding the pen are also in position to touch the screen!


    But there you have it folks; I can only hope MS seriously re-considers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  5. thatcomicsguy

    thatcomicsguy Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    I think MS would do well to allow users to configure the pen to behave however they like within its hardware parameters -while providing their scheme as a standard system default for those who want it to, "Just Work".

    Home computers were supposed to give people the power to do what they wanted; it's not supposed to be a platform for enforcing some board room's opinion on how people should all behave.

    MS is best when they act from a place of confidence in the fact that they're not Apple. PC users want and like the ability to define their own experience even if it means a little extra work and complexity.
     
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  6. Steve S

    Steve S Pen Pro - Senior Member Super Moderator

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    <<...I think MS would do well to allow users to configure the pen to behave however they like within its hardware parameters...>>

    ...Well put...
     
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  7. Marty

    Marty Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    For those late to the party, here's a good summary of the new pen behavior by MatteoColombo on the Microsoft forums:

    "Before FCU:
    Touch to scroll, pan, zoom, rotate 3d;
    Stylus to select and interact with objects and texts.

    After FCU:
    Touch to scroll, pan, zoom, rotate 3d;
    NOTHING (tablet mode) to select, drag or point text and objects around;
    Stylus became an unuseful, third extra finger (which doesn't zoom)."​


    The crux of the matter is this sentence, from the official quote above:

    "Although pen is most useful for inking, in places where inking does not make sense or is not yet available, pen can now directly manipulate content the way your finger does."

    followed by this dodgily worded explanation:

    "This change eliminates the need to hunt-and-peck for UI elements and prevents users from constantly switching between pen and other input modalities."

    which should really read:

    "This change eliminates the need ability to hunt-and-peck for UI elements and prevents users from constantly switching being able to switch between pen and other input modalities."


    MS has not made the pen "a more versatile tool," but actually restricted the pen from performing mouse clicks by default at the user mode layer. This breaks pen input any app that isn't coded specifically to handle Windows Ink—which is like 99% of all apps ever made. o_O
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  8. thierryb

    thierryb Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Why they do not ask us what we want ? Why they do not read this specialized forum ? Why they think they know better than us what we need ?
     
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  9. jnjroach

    jnjroach Surface MVP Super Moderator

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    I know you won't like the answer but we're still a nitch audience that learned very unnatural pen habits dating back to Windows XP TabletPC Edition.

    When Microsoft puts normies through usability studies (1000s of users) they get the data that contradicts our desire.

    They found if they want to drive wider pen adoption it should act more like a pen.
     
  10. Steve S

    Steve S Pen Pro - Senior Member Super Moderator

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    <<...They found if they want to drive wider pen adoption it should act more like a pen...>>

    ...HOWEVER, that fact doesn't mean that they can't provide a software switch as others have suggested. New users would be completely unaware of the option (and many users run Windows without ever altering very many default settings...)...
     
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