Connected Standby Discussion (was: Connected Standby battery drain issue)

Discussion in 'Dell' started by daver, May 22, 2014.

  1. daver

    daver Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    This thread is for discussing Connected Standby in general. Following up on the other thread Connected Standby battery drain issue, so as not to fill it up with general and somewhat unrelated discussion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2015
  2. daver

    daver Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Well, I think that they should care about the variations. You're going to be spending your money on something that you know absolutely nothing about? Well it's your (a general "your") fault for buying into something without knowing the slightest bit about it. You should know that you're buying a computer, not an iPad/Android. How many people bought an iOS or Android tablet as a BYOD thinking that they could completely replace their laptops, only to find out that it doesn't run the legacy x86 applications that they require for work and are now out $500? It's an edge case, but it happens too often in our industry. As for the consumer, I get that they shouldn't care what's inside so long as it all works, but it's still on them to ensure that they know how to operate whatever it is they're buying. It's on them to know roughly what their device is capable of and why it's capable in those ways, as well as know its limitations.

    Yes, these things should just work out of the box. And guess what? Connected Standby does work right out of the box. Who said it doesn't do what it was intended to do? The tablet remains in an awakened state where services and applications can poll for data at a periodic rate, or if an application or service is registered to force the tablet to wake up and leave S0 it will do so. Upon each poll the hardware enables itself and does its thing: NIC allows streaming of bits and bytes, processor ramps up to allow services and applications to perform their scheduled tasks, and then everything goes back to sleep. So Connected Standby is "working as intended". (Hopefully you're chuckling at that as much as I am).

    The problem is that the hardware we're running is power hungry and the applications and services aren't really optimized for Connected Standby. Windows 8 is unfortunately really generous, it usually waits until the applications and services are done their updates before going back to S0, it doesn't just tell the active task "too bad" and cut it off before ramping down back to S0. So what should have been a mere 5 second polling update turns into a 2-3 minute waiting session. And if this happens multiple times within 2 hours it's no wonder why our batteries drain by as much as 5-10%. There are some cases such as the one you linked where it never returns to sleep. In that poor person's case it looks like the GPU is one of the culprits. That sucker eats up a lot of power, and that's a huge battery drain on its own. Add to that the processor, NIC, and audio, and you're looking at something as high as his reported 1.2mW power consumption.

    An excellent example of this same poor implementation is with Android and Facebook app (I don't have iOS so I've not experienced this on that platform before). The Facebook app runs in the background and continuously updates itself so that your News Feed is up to date at all times (unless you disable the app's background sync). Comparatively speaking this drains the battery on an Android device faster than installing Windows Updates on a Pentium M laptop without the power brick. So again, the Android and the application are both working as intended, the problem is that neither are optimized.

    You can't fault the manufacturer in all cases where something fails, such as Connected Standby. The manufacturer is just using OEM parts. They didn't design that hardware, so in some ways they're consumers of the OEM parts much like how we're consumers of their products.
     
  3. rwerksman

    rwerksman Scribbler - Standard Member

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    I agree to a point. Consumers are not computing experts and the depth and breadth of information they have is no where close to what we have. There are certain unspoken expectations when it comes to a tablet. (because that is certainly what these are - Dell doesn't refer to them as keyboard less PCs) One of which is power usage. Do they know (or do you really?) how much juice a device will burn through overnight if not plugged in? Probably not. There is an acceptable range. The Venue 11 falls outside of that due to issues with connected standby.

    If they did, they are morons. Application compatibility is *the* issue that folks ask about. It goes hand and hand with look and feel. With the Venue, it will run your Windows programs - that is one of the key selling points. If it wasn't, why would the Venue 8 Pro crush the standard Venue 8 in sales?

    Holy crap you're smoking crack! :thumbsup: Here is the spec. (warning, PDF) TL;DR - no more than 5% battery drain over 16 hours. I'm personally averaging over 6% PER HOUR with a CLEAN DELL INSTALL. Folks in the other thread are well north of 5% over 16 hours, albeit I do not have consistant information regardind what is installed on their tablet. Here are some other threads that point this out as well:

    Dell Venue 8 Pro: Power button to sleep causes high Connected Standby drain (450mwh and above) - Windows Mobile Products - Mobile Devices - Dell Community
    Venue 11 Pro never meeting connected standby power requirements - Windows Mobile Products - Mobile Devices - Dell Community
    Dell Venue 8 Pro - Absolutely STUPID Connected Standby behavior - Windows Mobile Products - Mobile Devices - Dell Community
    Dell Venue 11 Pro Battery Drain Issue - Windows Mobile Products - Mobile Devices - Dell Community
    Venue 8 Pro: Any luck with Connected Standby issues and a Depot Service Dispatch? - Windows Mobile Products - Mobile Devices - Dell Community
    Venue 8 Pro 32GB - Insane battery drain - Windows Mobile Products - Mobile Devices - Dell Community
    Venue 8 Pro Connected Standby - Mobile Devices Forum - Mobile Devices - Dell Community
    Dell Venue 8 Pro Battery Drain, Support No Help - Windows Mobile Products - Mobile Devices - Dell Community
    http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/dell/59676-connected-standby-battery-drain-venue-8-pro.html
    http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/dell/60494-connected-standby-battery-drain-issue.html

    that's after 30 seconds of Googling!

    I sure can. The tablet isn't marketed as a Intel, Broadcom, Samsung device - it's a Dell Venue 11. That is one of the risks you have when you are an OEM using subcontracers for parts. Delphi doesn't have a $10BN lawsuit agains them for defective parts, GM does for defective cars.

    I think I'm done here...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2015
  4. jyan_osu

    jyan_osu Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  5. daver

    daver Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Dell's first two sentences when detailing their own product on the Venue 11 Pro product page are these (emphasis mine):
    Switch easily between desktop, laptop and tablet modes for a more flexible and versatile tablet experience. The Dell Venue 11 Pro delivers the portability of a tablet, power of an Ultrabook™ and experience of a desktop.

    So...
    Portability of a tablet: check. Heavier than an iPad or Android tablet, but still ultimately a slate tablet as the primary form factor.
    Power of an Ultrabook: kind of fuzzy and hand wavy on that one since the processor isn't necessarily the U-series, but it's Close Enough™.
    Experience of a desktop: again kind of fuzzy, and I'm inclined to disagree with this, but I think they're referring it to running Windows 8 and having an available dock.

    Traditionally the term "tablet" really just meant it was in this special form factor (whatever "this" meant at each generation since say 2001). Now it's too ubiquitous of a word to use it to define a machine. The Venue 11 is a tablet, yes, but it's a hybrid tablet PC. iPads and Android tablets are just tablets. While they share the same single-word mo****r, they are two very different machines. It's the same as saying that a Toyota Corolla and a Ford Mustang are both cars.

    As for how much juice my device, or yours or anyone else's, is burning while in Connected Standby, just run a full Power Management Energy report. It will tell you in milliwatts how much power is being wasted. Of course I can't tell you what mine is now since I don't use CS, but when I first played with CS I was seeing all sorts of numbers below 1000mW in my PM Energy reports. It was never consistent between sessions. Goofing with drivers improved and reduced that number.

    Mythoughts exactly. That's why I'm saying that it's on them, the buyers, to know what they're getting into.

    You link the same spec that I read months ago about CS, and you point out the test requirements for CS (specifically Duration). I'm not denying that the Dells have poor battery life while in CS, and frankly they all fail that requirement. But try this: put your Venue into Airplane Mode and then go into Connected Standby. My friend's DVP8 uses about 2% in an 8 hour window when it's in Airplane Mode and in CS. That surely passes the requirement as set in out the spec by Microsoft. Microsoft's requirement never said that you needed to have an active NIC when testing for ConnectedStandbyDuration of < 5% / 16 hour window. They simply indicated that while in CS, the device's battery should not be reduced by more than that.

    Again, I'll point out that Dell's not the only one with horrible Connected Standby battery life. Lenovo, Asus, Acer, Sony, HP, they all have similar problems with their slates,hybrids, ultrabooks and laptops. This is a bigger problem than just with Dell. That's why I was very specific in saying that "You can't fault the manufacturer in all cases where something fails, such as Connected Standby". In this case, it's not entirely Dell's fault because they're not the only ones with this problem. Connected Standby itself is working, everything else that's using it makes it broken.

    OK, I'm weirded out by this. When I ran previous SleepStudy and Battery reports, I would see times showing up in the Connected Standby columns. :confused:- Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  6. rwerksman

    rwerksman Scribbler - Standard Member

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    The Suface Pro and Surface Pro 2 don't support connected standby due to the hardware Microsoft chose to use, specifically. If you look in the previously posted PDF for hardware certification requirements, one of the items listed is TPM 2.0. Both of the prior Surfaces only had TPM 1.2.

    The Surface Pro 3 has 2.0 and does indeed support Connected Standby. It working though is a completely different story. I guess we'll find out when the initial reviews are posted. :confused:
     
  7. jyan_osu

    jyan_osu Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Yup but the main thing was for those of us that use the Pro version and run 64-bit OS, Microsoft and drivers from Intel didn't support Connected Standby until 2 days ago so the point is moot on all OEMs implementing Connected Standby in tablets that weren't running Baytrail with 64-bit Windows 8.1 installed.

    Now that the OS and drivers are starting to take shape to support this, let's see how future products do and hope that current products with the right hardware will have this sorted out as well.
     
  8. rwerksman

    rwerksman Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Uh, that isn't the case. The 7130 Venue 11 has "supported" CS since introduction a few months ago. The HP Elitepad also supports it running W8.1 x64. Granted, it actually working correctly is a different story.

    The older Surface Pro's however do not and will never do CS because of the hardware chosen.
     
  9. dceggert

    dceggert Owner of a TabletPC Museum Senior Member

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    This all seems like a pretty heated discussion over Connected Standby. What, exactly, are you expecting it to do that is so important? Yes, I have email notifications on my lock screen, and the current temp is displayed, but none of this is very important. Maybe Skype calls come through on Standby?

    By the way, my 64-bit Elitepad 1000 came exactly 1 month ago today and it supported Connected Standby on arrival so it has been working on X64 for more than 2 days now.

    Also, my V8P also has working Connected Standby but that is 32-bit, but I do not have the excessive battery drain issue. Sometimes it sits for days and when I pick it up it still has a charge nearly full. So, there must be a software or driver issue causing the drain on some machines, or it may be the choices of what is running in the background made by the user that may be causing it. Anyway, since my V8P works it isn't a systemic issue with all V8P's so there is a variation causing this.
     
  10. rwerksman

    rwerksman Scribbler - Standard Member

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    I just want it not to crush 6% of the battery per hour. I'd easily accept it eating triple the spec - 15% over 16 hours. :(
     

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