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Discussion in 'Lenovo (IBM)' started by kurt corbin, Nov 21, 2019.

  1. kurt corbin

    kurt corbin Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  2. JoeS

    JoeS I'm all ears Senior Member

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  3. lovelaptops

    lovelaptops My friends call me Jeff Senior Member

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    @kurt corbin Thanks for posting this (review). It is exactly the comparison that I, and many of us I think, are eager to see. Can't help but observing, though, the narrator is incredibly annoying to listen to! It took him 33 minutes to cover content he could have covered in 5 minutes, and he just drones on and on! (I hope he's not a friend or relative - if so, no offense, just critique!)

    I'm left perhaps more torn than before! Assuming the benchmarks are accurate - and it seems weird, given the 25W vs 15W cpu; perhaps he used the wrong benchmarks to demonstrate differences - it does come down, apparently, to a few relatively minor details. The screen is the main differentiator, but I am not as big a fan of OLED as others, however we've come to know, as mentioned above, you can't trust which screen you'll get with a Lenovo, so all bets are off until you open the box. Otherwise, it was surprising that you pay no weight penalty for the larger screen, though the compact form of the HP is very desirable. It's been a long time - if ever - that I've seen two products that compete so well, and both of which have only very minor weaknesses. Thus, you can't go wrong with either.

    I think the last variable, which is so hard to measure but which would drive my decision if I felt I could get reliable data about, is customer support. Throwing in the Dell XPS 2 in 1, I truly mistrust all three companies' consumer customer support (and for Lenovo, even business class support these days, from what I've read, not experienced) such that I'm inclined to call it a toss-up there too. Anyone have any strong feelings about differences in support between the three?[/QUOTE]
     
  4. lovelaptops

    lovelaptops My friends call me Jeff Senior Member

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    First, Happy Thanksgiving to all!

    Nice work @kurt corbin! That fan problem would be a total deal breaker, but it sounds like one that could easily be remedied by software/driver updates. This is, at best, a wait-and-see situation. Regardless, reading those many, many posts one is reminded how bad Lenovo support is. This is one key problem for all laptop mfrs except MS and Apple; if only their products weren't so far off the mark and expensive.

    Most important, we privileged TPCR devotees have reports of *2* highly discerning and demanding owners - @dstrauss and @desertlap - who can vouch for the competing HP Spectre x360 13 as an essentially flawless device in terms of operating reliability and consistency. I can't remember a time when a new, important product had such reliable and favorable reports - these two are worth more than dozens of strangers' - providing tremendous confidence to purchase this HP device. This, on top of the clearly superb design and specs of the newest Spectre x360 13, makes it the no-brainer choice for anyone looking for this class of device. I'm only waiting for a first sale (maybe run up to Xmas, maybe post-Xmas) to make this certain purchase!

    Thanks @kurt corbin, @dstrauss and @desertlap - and even HP! Happy holidays.
     
  5. lovelaptops

    lovelaptops My friends call me Jeff Senior Member

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    Excellent points Kurt. I've never experienced a migraine of any kind, but I would steer clear of any display that risks causing one if you know you are susceptible. I do think the fan issue is easily curable, in time. Not so sure about jitters. Light bleed has never bothered me in actual use. Good luck.
     
  6. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    So a couple of points.
    1. Burn-in TBD on the on the display used in HP. It's a Samsung panel which gives me hope.

    FWIW, generally speaking the issue with "burn in" has for all intents and purpose been mitigated for most use cases within the last a couple of generations of OLED that you are likely to see in a laptop or tablet. I'd say 99% of the reports of burn in come either from older generation televisions or phones.

    To give one admittedly anecdotal data point. We have a handful of customers using GB2s or Samsung Tab S4 devices in conjunction with our custom devices. In those cases they are on pretty much 8-12 hours at a go with a fairly static display (the middle section changes but the overall UI stays consistent). We haven't seen any issues with burn in or other artifacting with either unit.

    TLDR: Given that the HP OLED is a Samsung panel and is in fact a slightly newer gen of the panels used in those two devices, I'd say its a non issue. of course YMMV. And also the Spectre is available with a conventional LCD panel albeit 1080p.

    So as to PWM, it's pretty straight forward at this point. If it's OLED, it will use PWM to regulate brightness. There is some tech on the medium horizon that will hopefully change that, but not soon.

    OTOH, We are hearing that Samsung might announce mobile and laptop displays based on their QLED tech as soon as CES2020. QLED has some of the benefits of OLED such as better colors and faster response time. And with QLED companies have a much wider range of backlight options.
     
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  7. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    From what we have been told the Razer is an unusual exception with a custom controller that does some unique tricks. It still "pulses" the display, but does it more dynamically and non-linearly e.g. different portions get dimmed while the whole display doesn't necessarily.

    It's somewhat like local dimming with conventional LED backlit displays.
    Additionally it's supposedly not very power efficient and has gray scale linearity issues. Of course we haven't tested it ourselves since that type of system is not something our customer base would use so the information we have is what we've been told.

    EDIT: For the record, the display in the HP does use PWM
     
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  8. lovelaptops

    lovelaptops My friends call me Jeff Senior Member

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    Excellent posts by both @kurt corbin and @desertlap! Curious, any idea what % of people suffer effects from PWM? I've had devices with and without it and have never observed reactions. Presently, I'd be pretty concerned about the c940's apparent thermal problems, as documented by @kurt corbin, though I can't imagine they aren't easily fixed by updates. Thoughts?
     
  9. desertlap

    desertlap Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    @kurt corbin Not sure of what you are getting at here. I get that you are sensitive to PWM, but it's not something we normally test for. For us it's far more important that the various data interfaces (USB, Thunderbolt, Bluetooth, WiFi) perform to spec and secondarily that the display is reasonably color accurate (or can be made that way with calibration).

    Th reason I'm saying the OLED on the HP uses PWM is because that's what HP told us and I don't have any reason to doubt it.

    The sample we tested has gone back to the customer and my wife is using her system so I'm disinclined to take it from her to test for this.

    And FWIW, I have no interest in "being first" on something like this. It's not why I read and post here and isn't relevant to my job.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  10. kurt corbin

    kurt corbin Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Well, of course you know that it's all about the frequency. Did they tell you the frequency?
     

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