120 Hz refresh wacom Cintiqs in the pipeline?

Discussion in 'Artists' started by siddhartth, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. siddhartth

    siddhartth Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Is there a possibility that we might be able to see 120 or even 140 Hz refresh rate wacom cintiqs this year or a year later. I am this close to buying a 13" or 16" Cintiq pro but i have no patience for lag when i am writing. The advertisement of ProMotion display on ipadpro has made me an apple fanboy. But for longevity and ergonomic reasons i m partial to Cintiqs. I will be really sad if Wacom rolls out newer Cintiqs with high refresh rates this year itself, when i have just bought one. So if theresta wacom insider amongst us please give me a hint.
     
  2. dumbo

    dumbo Pen Pal - Newbie

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    Doubt it.
     
  3. Shogmaster

    Shogmaster Pen Pro - Senior Member Senior Member

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    Just get the iPad Pro already.
     
  4. thatcomicsguy

    thatcomicsguy Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    Refresh rate of what?

    There are at least two places in a hardware sense where refresh rate is relevant, and neither of them I think has anything to do with observed lag.

    There's the digitizer antenna/pen system, where I seem to recall from my hunting through the specs and schematics, are already in the 120-140 range, if not even higher, around 170 Hz. (Bearing in mind, that Wacom's EMR system flips from transmitting to sampling on every pulse, so you effectively get around a 60-85 Hz sample rate). -Also, I may be way off; it's possible that the sample rate is a lot higher. My memory is a bit unreliable on this point, but I seem to recall seeing numbers like 720 Hz back when I was pulling apart old boards.

    And there's the screen update frequency, typically around 60 Hz, which is mostly a function of your graphics card, -and is fine for the average eyeball.

    Neither system has any effective impact on cursor lag. You have to be scribbling really fast before anybody could start to notice the gaps between samples taken sixty times per second!

    Consider it in an audio sense. The most perceptive humans can hear 20 beats per second before it blurs into a steady tone.

    Cursor lag is a function of the CPU and efficiency of drawing software. -It is almost undetectable on my old desktop Cintiq rig when using a small brush, but becomes exaggerated with bigger, more complex brushes which take more crunch power, and thus more time to render.

    It is also, I suspect, sometimes a deliberately inserted delay on Tablet PC systems, perhaps put there to create a difference between the perceived quality of premium Cintiq gear versus third party portables. -OR to be more charitable, is perhaps created to make following the cursor easier since having it always directly beneath the pen nib means it is hidden while writing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  5. siddhartth

    siddhartth Scribbler - Standard Member

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    Display refresh rate= Screen update freqency~60 Hz in average monitors but 100 to 144 Hz in premium monitors. Beyond 144 Hz it doesn't matter our eyes don't percieve the difference.

    I am not here referring to the digitization frequency of the digitizer layer= polling rate = scan rate= point report rate
    • ~ 130Hz in the New NTrig
    • ~240Hz in ipadpro and
    • ~ 360Hz in Note7 and Note8 and
    • probably in the new Cintiqs too in the neighborhood of 233Hz

    This is what makes wacom the King along with the less than 1gram IAF.

    Gamers and people who deal with moving image do appreciate the difference and thus the market for 144 Hz monitors.
    Yeah just like the games. If the app or game is optimised then it's frame rate will be high enough to match the display hardware's refresh rate. Even with 144Hz monitor one will still percieve the lag in motion if the app or the game is very demanding with respect to the CPU/GPU and is only projecting a frame rate of 30Hz. The apps i am planning to use provide good enough frame rate. Though i have seen some beastly gamongrigs and premium monitors runnning CIV6 at flabbergasting 110 Hz of framerate, it looked buttery smooth.
    That's an urban myth or a conspiracy theory. OEMs themselves buy the cheaper stuff from Wacom and NTrig and not their greates and latest. Samsung changed that trend from Note7 onwards. And Dell followed suit with Dell Canvas, both are using the top shelf shiny stuff from Wacom.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  6. thatcomicsguy

    thatcomicsguy Scribbler - Standard Member Senior Member

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    You're probably right. The cursor on all old Penabled Tablet PC systems was permanently drifting behind the nib position when you moved the pen. I just ran a test, paying attention to the cursor behavior, and both my modern Samsung portable and desktop Cintiq DO show that same behavior. Clearly, I've stopped noticing the effect.

    It seems counter-intuitive to deliberately code a delay into place. The slowest updating data would be the 60 Hz screen refresh on all my systems; I wonder if gamer-speed rigs would show the same effect?
     
  7. siddhartth

    siddhartth Scribbler - Standard Member

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    LG, BenQ, Samsung, Dell all make good and affordable 144Hz full HDHdisplay, but ofcourse if u get too demanding on the colour gamut and have 4k expectations, then prices will go up steeply. But i doubt the programmes you would use (desktop Adobe products) even support the framerates upwards of 60Hz. I will be using just Onenote, Drawboard and included MSpaint app for trying calligraphy for the first time. These apps probably being lighter might project good framerates nearing 70 to 90 Hz which a high refresh monitor can pick up. Also most games are scalable to provide high framerates provided the rig has the guts for it.

    I hope Dell or Samsung would come up with a smaller canvas like thing with high refresh rate. They say that it's hard to go back to 60Hz once u have worked on a 144Hz monitor. But then art is different than gaming, art is a deliberative mindful process (thats why the artist demographic is always so paranoid about the wobbly lines in every penabled product ). Gaming on the other hands is pure reflexes. Handwriting comes in the middle, care free fast yet structured. And thus the lawyer/doctor/student demographic is so stuck up on the IAF and points per second polling rate.

    And if that was not enough iPadpro now has given everybody from artists to lawyers one more thing to obsess about i.e, promotion display 120 hz image refresh. May be i will actually go with Shogmasters' advice and be done with it with an ipadpro purchase.

    IPadpro is too expensive a tablet, iOS is too limited an OS, but it's practically a cintiq+144Hzmonitor+computer combined into one. It's actually a great value. It has everything but the right click and drag select which makes it a very hard pill to swallow for me. But the lack of pen performance on the hardware side by Microsoft might push me to take the iOS plunge.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  8. kurt corbin

    kurt corbin Pen Pal - Newbie

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    The top left usb-c port on the current Cintiq has alt mode DP, probably DP 1.2, which supports only 4K/60Hz. Any refresh should have a usb-c port with the new Thunderbolt 3 Titan Ridge JHL7440 controller, with alt mode DP 1.4, which supports 4K/120 Hz with 30 bit/px RGB color and HDR if the Cintiq can support Display Stream Compression with HBR3 transmission rates.
     
  9. siddhartth

    siddhartth Scribbler - Standard Member

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    It's not just a hardware limitation that is keeping Cintiq from updating to 120 hz refresh displays. I only recently realized except a few games, most pc/mac creativity/productivity softwares do not yet support 120 Hz framerate. When there is no software to support such framerates that can take advantage of high refresh rate, there is no real pressure on Wacom to update it's hardware.

    Apple ipadpro and the apps tgat support its high refresh rate is a different story.

    So unless Adobe, Zbrush and Microsoft and other software makers commit to high frame rates. Digital pen users on windows and mac are stuck with 60 Hz and in many cases less than that.
     
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