Photoshop toolbar

[lblb]

Well that's not good!
Could it be that while updating the other files you accidentally deleted the file Right_Click_2.ahk? It should be in the same folder as the toolbar and the hover files?
If the file is still there, does pan work when you launch it by double-clicking on it?
I'm sorry that there are quite a few files to keep track of right now with all the experimenting that we've been doing. That should be a thing of the past when I get a chance to incorporate the new functions in the code for the toolbar.

On another note, I tried very briefly to look at manipulating the different palette windows in Art Rage. (I didn't really have time for it, but what's a guy to do when he's got four different tax forms to fill?!!) While there are some ways do some basic hide/show stuff, it's very buggy and not very useful for now. I'll have to work more on this but for now it doesn't look as promising as it turned out to be in Sai. (That last sentence is actually funny: remember how surprising it was when we figured out we could play with the Sai palettes? And now it's kind of an obvious always-was-there function!)

Also, I should be able to start working on your new mockup soon. One issue resurfaces: what hotkeys do you want to use for the different tools? Can the alphabet sustain our demands? I don't have my tablet around, but can we assign numbers as hotkeys for the tools? Or maybe special characters? Or maybe punctuation?

[Steve B]

Hmmm, I might just try and re-download everything. Perhaps I messed something up with all this futzing about. ??

Re: Sai-- I jive with the fact that there might just be some bugs we can't work out. I just have been repeatedly impressed with how you've ironed them out, so I bring them up. It's still amazingly quicker and more useful than it used to be. The Hover Icons themselves are worth the price of gold in and of themselves.

Re: Windows in Artrage-- well, if we can't get the windows to be Hover Icons, do you think we can have little Toggle Icons for them? Or perhaps a thing where we could double tap or right-click on an icon to bring something up? I'm mostly thinking about the Tool Settings and Presets-- though Tool Settings is the most commonly used by me while "in the flow" of painting, as I've discovered that you can emulate a lot of presets very quickly if you just understand the dials better. I was thinking something where you could right-click a Tool Icon and up would pop the Tool Settings for the active tool. That sort of thing. It's actually been in my mind for about a month, but I didn't bring it up, as we've been working on Sai so much.

Beyond that, I'm taking an online course for Artrage, and so am doing a bit more work in Artrage right now, which is good. I'm hammering out and finalizing what things I'd like to do regularly that are slow to do right now. Mostly stuff for the Layers Subpanel.

Something else Artrage can do that I've been curious about using is Scripts-- basically, it allows us to do a series of events in Artrage automatically by starting the script. Does AHK do this natively, or is this something I should explore in Artrage, and then we might be able to start scripts using a button in AHK?

Off the cuff, I'm thinking about things like a few small buttons, each starting a different type of new layer that has the right blend mode, layer texture, and texture settings for different kinds of painting-- if I want rough textures for dry brush strokes, or small texture for wet into wet, etc. Whatever. That kind of stuff. Same might go for importing images to a Layer, which I then always have to stretch to fit the canvas size, and then always have to desaturate to black and white, and then always have to set to Overlay blend mode. These are the sorts of things that it would be nice to get to do with a button-- even if I have to wait a little bit for all that to happen in sequence.

I'll get back to you on the hotkeys for Sai's 1234 settings. It would be nice if there was some sort of originzational method to it, instead of total chaos.

Oh, here's some pears I painted in Artrage yesterday, using your AHK setup.

[lblb]

Nice pears! And let's call it "our" AHK setup!

An online course sounds like a great opportunity to discover new or better functions to incorporate in the toolbar. I'm eager to see what you can get out of it.

Does the pan function work if you reinstall everything?

The idea of scripts sounds good. AHK is very good at doing things sequentially and at digging into menus. The difficulty I could see is that it might be problematic if the script necessitates clicking on specific buttons on some of the Art Rage palette windows. As I mentioned in the hover stuff, AHK has a hard time detecting the Art Rage windows.

I just updated my copy of Art Rage and downloaded a script from the forum. I don't know if they are all like that but the one I downloaded starts a new instance of Art Rage then does stuff automatically. The script works when you just double-click on the script file (i.e. you don't have to select the script from the menu in Art Rage). This makes it very easy to launch with AHK (in the code, you would just have to add a button with a code like "Run File X"). And the language seems rather easy to learn, although it is different from AHK.

[Steve B]

Well, for now its a no-go for Pan in Sai. I'm not sure what the issue is. I checked all my settings- I'm Right-click for the bottom button, and right-click in ISD, Hover click as well. I tried re-downloading everything. I tried it using the #5 code and the #2 code. I tried it with the old Toolbar Subroutines and the new one. I even tried just download 2.4 with nothing else added to it, and it didn't work. I'm very confused by this.

My right-click still works in Windows, and it works in Artrage in AHK. I just get no response from using it in Sai when the AHK set up is in place anymore.

If I turn off the AHK setup and run Sai I also now get no right-click input-- the eyedropper normally. I even checked and closed two AHK processes manually that don't always shut down. Still no go. I'm going to reboot and see if I get any eye-dropper response from Sai with no AHK progams in effect at all.

edit-
yep, eyedropper is back after rebooting. So something is going on with the AHK script that's making this happen. And then its not turning off even when I close the scripts.

BTW, don't know if this is helpful, but if I try to run the Toolbar Subroutines program (the most current one), I get this error message. I know I don't need to, but I was just testing stuff and trying to see what might be causing the problem.

edit #2-
after the re-boot I tried using the original 2.4 set to Right_Click_2, which has no Hover buttons and has the original Toolbar Subroutine, and yes, I can then pan again. So that is working on my computer still as of that version. Something was making it not work though, before I rebooted. Presumably something from the newer script not turning off, as I tested it first?

edit #3-
rebooted and tried out the current version with the current Toolbar Subroutine with Right_Click_2, with Hover Icons. Right click is back, but it doesn't seem as stable as it did before the Hover Icons. ??? I haven't tried anything out aggressively, but I was wondering if it had anything to do with the order things are put into play? Like, I need to open Sai first, then the AHK script, then the Hover Icons, or some such thing? I dunno. Anyways, it seems to be working, but Pan (in the short time I was testing) didn't seem as smooth and regular as it did before the Hover Icons. ??? I probably wont be able to test it out before a while, because I'll actually need to be painting for a while during a session to see how "regular"/buggy things are.

[lblb]

Strange... and annoying.

Everything works fine here. My guess would be that some of this is probably related to the order in which you fired up the different programs. And there was indeed a bug with closing the pan script (see below). The following seems to work all the time for me: first launch Sai, then the hover icons, then the toolbar. And I haven't seen any difference in the pan function whether the hover icons are present or not... maybe more investigation needed...

While I can't be sure, I think the following may help:
1) Open Right-Click_2.ahk in a text editor and either delete line 4 (#NoTrayIcon) or put a semicolon in front of it. You should now see a tray icon when this script is on.
2) While you're there, change w for v on the last line. This is the command that closes this pan script (i.e. Ctrl+Alt+Shift+W), but I just realized that it's also used by one of the hover icons. Ctrl+Alt+Shift+V is not used, so that may make it more reliable. Then open the ahk file for the toolbar in a text editor, and on line 3623 change w for v.

The error message that you obtained is because the subroutines couldn't find the file Dock.ahk (which contains definitions for functions that are used by the toolbar and the subroutines). Make sure the file Dock.ahk is in the main folder (together with the toolbar and its subroutines) and it should be ok. (Even if Dock.ahk is there, you will probably still get the error message if you launch the subroutines but that's normal: the file for the toolbar uses both the subroutines and Dock.ahk, so the subroutines actually find Dock.ahk through the toolbar.)

I can't wait to have time to work on this... much of these annoying bugs should be solved very quickly as soon as I integrate the functions in the toolbar.

[lblb]

Hopefully the whole thing is behaving normally now.

I will start working on the new Sai mockup today. A few questions:

1) Any clue about which hotkeys to use for the different tools? By the way, don't worry if you don't have time to look into this, just post them whenever you've had time to test it out.

2) For the transparency tool: I understand its purpose, but I just haven't had the chance to test it much. When you just use Sai normally (i.e. without the toolbar) and you "engage" the transparency for a given tool, does it get automatically "disengaged" when you select another tool? or, for that matter, when you select any other function?

3) Trying to plan ahead a bit: What setup would seem to be better for your uses? Should there be different Sai "profiles" in the main dropdown menu? For example, a first profile with large buttons on the toolbar and with X close buttons on the Sai windows, and a second one with small toolbar buttons and the hover icons? Should there be instead one Sai profile, and then maybe something like a separate UI window where you can select a few options (like we mentioned previously)? Possible options that I can see for now are:
right-click pan
hover icons
X close buttons (are these still desirable?)
different button size (well, that would actually be different toolbars, not just an option that you can tick on/off)

Considering the questions in 3), if there is only one profile, what should be the default setting? Pan and hover icons by default?

[lblb]

Well' I've been busier than I thought I would be during the last week... end of semesters are always unpredictable! And who wants to stay inside in front of a computer when summer finally shows up?!

I'm almost done with the new layout for Sai (hopefully I'll be able to post it soon). In the meantime, could you take a look at the questions in the previous post?

[Steve B]

Hmmmm.... Ok.

1) I think there's almost enough letters to do what we want. I've cut and pasted the list from an older post, with a shift in key shortcuts based on the need for 4 presets per tool-- basically, things are getting pushed down the line. I've also tested the numbers, and they work as shortcuts-- there's a setting for % of Brush Density, but I've never used it, and it just bumps that function out of the way if you program a tool to that key shortcut. So, that's what I've done for the last few.

Pencil
1= B
2= C
3= G
4= I

Ink (Pen)
1= J
2= K
3= M
4= N

Watercolor
1= O
2= P
3= Q
4= R

Brush
1= T
2= U
3= V
4= W

Blur
1= Y
2= Z
3= 1
4= 2

Eraser= E

2) Transparency- I did a little testing in Sai today, and in Sai, if you toggle this on it stays on until you toggle it off. It stays on even when you switch from drawing tool to drawing tool. It even stays on when you change to other functions like the Lasso or Zoom tools, for example. So, yes, it always stays on until you tap it again and toggle it off.

3) Right-click to Pan and Hover Icons should be the default, absolutely. They're practically essential for me in Sai now. I'm still having some issues with Pan not working regularly, but I'm just going to wait until you release this newer version with the Hover Icons integrated, etc. all that jazz, and then see how it goes. It was working before, so something's funky with current setup, so who knows. I think it'll work out fine then.


As for the setup options--

I think its possible a person might not want Hover Icons, and if they didn't want Hover Icons, then they'd need the Layers Panel to open and close them. Then, after that, the question would be whether they wanted the "X" option or not. So, I see that as a 1, 2, 3 process for this part with check boxes-- first= do you want Hover Icons without a Palette Panel?, second= do you want to remove Hover Icons and have a Palette Panel?, third=do you want the "x" method as an additional way to close the Palettes?

For the right-click to Pan, I think it's a similar 1, 2 process with boxes as well-- first= do you want right-click to Pan, and second= do you want to revert to Sai's built in methodology with right-click= eye dropper?

I think that separate from this would be the question of whether or not they wanted things like a separate Tools Palette with the rollup arrow or not (although that creates some of its own issues, because then you need to rollout arrow, which means you'll have the functionality of the Palettes Panel as well, sort of potentially left over, like an appendix), or whether they'd want the smaller version of things. I think one method is to make the smaller button version of things automatic if you choose the Hover Icons-- there's only so many options a person needs, perhaps. The other method is just that its an option to turn on or off like all the other options, and if a person wanted larger buttons with rollout Panels for Tools and Palettes, as well as the Hover Icons, then perhaps that's fine for them to pick.

In the end, I think the option for multiple versions to setup is really a bit up to you, and whether you find that an interesting challenge or not. I know for a fact that I want Hover Icons and right-click to Pan. But if you're hoping we might share this with others, than more robust setup options could be nice.

I'll have some additional thoughts on Artrage soon. I've been busy painting with the existing AHK toolbar, and need to organize my thoughts. A bug is occuring, btw, where the toolbar seems to be moving to the "original" upper left hand position some times when I click a button. Not sure which one-- perhaps in the Layers Panel?

[lblb]

Goddammit... it took me all evening but I think I figured out where that bug (i.e. the toolbar being sent to the top left corner) comes from. In my hands, it only happens when right-clicking a button on the toolbar that doesn't have a right-click action associated to it. Is that also when you observe that behavior (does it happen on left-click)? If that's the case, then it's solved.

For the tools in Sai, I'll do as you mentioned earlier and highlight the 1-4 tool switch that is in use. I won't put numbers on the tool button but would it be better if the tool was also highlighted (or do you prefer having only the switch highlighted)?

By the way, you may have seen a post in the EP121 forum where I developed something to use a tablet as a remote control. In fact, that is really just a distraction that came out of my attempts at using AutoHotkey for the "tablet-as-a-Cintiq" conundrum. Utterly unsuccessful for now.

[Steve B]

Just to be clear before you do the work--

In my mind, each of the 1234 buttons has a # on it. The "main" tool button has just the icon-- although it can still have the # too. You can activate the tool either by hitting the main tool icon button, or by directly hitting its appropriate 1234 button (right? as in, no reason to add an extra step if we don't need to). The main icon button retains the appropriate 1234 designation even when we go to another tool. Is that the way its currently functioning?

Re: highlighting-- my idea was to have both the main tool icon and the appropriately active 1234 button highlighted. Mostly, the issue I was that I was needing to check the main tool icon button to make sure what # icon I had pressed. If the 1234 buttons were highlighted when pressed, it would make that clearer faster.

Also, I don't mind the # being next to the main icon-- I just thought it might help save space if it were gone-- and you wouldn't need to have it necessarily, if the 1234 button were highlighted. Although...... hmmm, now that I think about it.... The # being next to the Tool Icon has benefits-- mostly because when you're using another tool and want to switch tools, you can easily see which # is being "retained" by the non-active tool icon. Does that make sense? Without the # next to the tool icon, how would you know which # was going to be the retained if you pressed a non-active tool icon? As in, without the # there next to the tool icon, you'd need to press the icon button first to know which 1234 button was being retained. Better to know that faster by having the active # noted in the main tool icon button. Or so it seems to me.

Like normal, I'm thinking of redundancy. Its good to be able to activate a tool by hitting either the 1234 button or by hitting the tool icon (I think its this way now anyways, right?). Its also nice to have multiple ways to know which # is active, either by the highlighted 1234 button, or by the # next to the tool icon. My presumption was that, of course, the 1234 buttons would only be "highlighted" when the respective tool icon was activated and therefor highlighted too. Is that true? I can't think of any other way to do it.

Did all that make sense?