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  1. #221
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    On this note- are they any more functions you think we can bind to the pen? Stroke It seems less and less important to me, as I now have almost all the functions I would have programmed to it, since I semi gig have the palettes available now. If that's so, then I have
    1) the upper button available
    2) that hover vs drag capability on the right click

    I was wondering if, for instance, we could bind the brush resize function to the upper pen button. I've never tried it in Sai, and so I don't know
    If it works natively, or if I'd need your help with AHK to get into work. The other idea is the ever desired zoom. Either would be awesome though, and useful. Also pertinent to the ongoing "whih buttons do we need to keep" discussion.
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  2. #222
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    Steve, do you realize the significance of the sentence "Stroke It seems less and less important to me"?
    That's kind of like a therapy breakthrough. That alone tells me we're on the right track!

    Below is a zip file containing the hover files for all four Sai windows (you should delete the previous ones). The icons are now 33x33 pixels. Also, I've included a file that either starts all four hover icons, or closes all four. In addition, you should also replace the file ToolbarSubroutines.ahk with the one in the zip file (it is now set so that none of the X close buttons will be present when you use the toolbar).

    Also: I see what you mean with drop down menus in the layer and color windows. I'll see what I can do (not sure I can do anything here) but for now there is a simple workaround: when you hit the arrow to go in the dropdown menu, don't take the pen off of the screen. This way, you can select an item in the menu without the palette going away. (I don't know why that is!)

    As for the pen buttons:
    1) Are you able to use your second side button in Sai as a middle-click? Is that what you use for StrokeIt? For me, it just doesn't work as a middle-click in Sai. Works in everything else though. If the middle-click works for you on the second side button in Sai, I think we may be able to remap it. If not, just tell me which functions would be better for the top side button and I'll try to see what I can do.
    2) The eraser will be more difficult. It is not detected by AutoHotkey, except for one type of technique. Using that AHK technique, I think it will prove to be possible to remap the eraser later on. Unfortunately, that will require that I learn much more about this (which means it may not be any time soon). So for now: no, we can't remap the eraser. The bummer is that when you use the eraser on any of the tools in the Tool window, the eraser becomes that tool. Unfortunately, neither a good zoom nor brush resize seems to be available to put on the eraser. But the hand is!
    3) Also, just realized something that may depend on the Wacom driver being used: If in the pen settings I set the second side button to be the eraser and then set the eraser in Sai to be, for example, the hand (by clicking on the hand with the eraser), then my second side button also becomes the hand. Does that also happen to you? If the second side button can be set to pan like this, maybe we could try to change the current right-click pan to right-click something else??? Maybe this can give you other ideas?...
    4) Considering what's in 3), maybe there is more we can do by first selecting in the pen settings a different function/hotkey for either of the side buttons (different from mouse buttons), then using AHK to remap that function/key to something else... Just throwing ideas here, may not be successful...
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by lblb; 04-08-2012 at 01:52 AM.

  3. #223
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    The issue with remapping certain keys on the pen is that I use the right click in other programs, so it's pretty important. The same goes for the eraser on top and how I use it, though I don't know if we could somehow map the eraser to both the top of the pen and the top side button. My point being that I don't know if we could use a side key mapped to the eraser to then do something different in AHK, and yet simultaneously be able to use the end-of-the-pen eraser to still be an eraser. I would imagine not. If that's true, then having a functional eraser wins out.

    However, I think the idea of setting the upper side button to something special in the ISD settings that could then be useful for programming in AHK is a potentially good idea-- if I can still have my right-click generally available on the bottom button, and my eraser on the end of the pen. I don't use the 2 button pen except when drawing, so it shouldn't matter if its set to something weird in the global ISD settings. Particularly of I'm not really using Stroke It-- which was normally set to the second side button.

    On the note of what I got to work in Sai for that upper side button. It's really a strange bug in the program. If I set, for instance, Stroke It to be engaged by right-click, I then have to set the ISD settings to Middle click, and then go into AHK and set the second (upper) button to right-click to get the commands to go through. What was odd was that it wouldn't work on the bottom button no matter what, even though the lower button was also set to right-click. This is because in Sai the lower button would always revert to the eyedropper tool. I could never get it to accept other inputs. I don't know if any of that is helpful, but that's what I've had to go through with he buttons on the pen in Sai. In Sai i have both buttons set to right-click, but in ISD I have the upper one set to middle click. The. I can give different inputs. It's definitely been a buggy experience.

    Also, your idea #3 is an interesting concept. If Pan could be set to the upper button, as in your example idea (ie through the eraser function or what not), and that then allowed other options for the lower right-click button, that's worth pondering as well. Right now, I like the Pan on the lower button, as it's ergonomically easy to use, and I use it a great deal, but I'd be game for exploring other options if we got something different that was cool and useful out of it.
    Last edited by Steve B; 04-08-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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  4. #224
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    That's very useful information. I haven't really tried anything yet and there has to be a way to do something with that second side button, I'll see what I can do.
    By the way, in the previous post are the hover files for all four Sai windows. Hopefully, that's going to help us decide on which button we want to keep/delete.
    I should be away for most of the week. I'll check back from time to time but I don't expect to have much time to work on this this week.

    Now on to taxes!
    Last edited by lblb; 04-08-2012 at 03:48 PM.

  5. #225
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    Preliminarily, with all 4 palettes with the Hover icons, having played with it a bit today, I could see pretty dramatically reducing the buttons in the AHK toolbar in Sai. I could see potentially removing zoom in and out, the hand, and the lasso. That would leave 6 buttons to match the 6 tool buttons.

    I still find the Tool subpanel very useful, and quicker than going into the Tool Palette, but it bloats the interface in Sai compared to, say, Artrage, with its 1234 buttons. Those buttons are simultaneously very useful and kinda chunky. The idea of streamlining the "main" AHK button panel to, say, one strip of 6 buttons in Sai only, would help reduce that physical "bloat", and makes some sense in this usage pattern (with the Hover icons).

    I'm trying to hammer out how one could do this with the newly sized buttons. The combo would reduce the overall size by atleast 1/3, so that's pretty significant (and good, I think!). So far, my ideas have been that you would need to-
    1) move the save button to the top of the drop down menu and somehow move the Move button to a header above both the tool and the main ahk panel, and/or
    2) perhaps increase the size of the "Transparency" button to better equal the size of the Main Icon button, and/or
    3) perhaps move those "Super Functions" like the Program Icon/Rollup Arrow/ Move Button to a floating bar above both the Tools and Main panels, and integrate the Tools Panel into the "Main" section (or atleast have them both still separate, but under the Super Functions Panel), and/or
    4) bring new functions into the main panel to have it equal the existing size and count of the buttons in Tools panel, or
    5) some combo of those.

    I'm having a hard time ironing that out.

    I also think that if we get something else (or multiple things?) bound to the pen, that that would change things again. If I could zoom or resize my active pen tool with the pen buttons that would probably affect what I'd have in the Main Panel, for instance. I think the fact that you're pondering a simple UI where you could choose to activate various options will help with this some, but I still can't figure it all out yet. But yes, the idea that you could "Turn On" the full Main Panel, or shrink it to a smaller streamlined version with a checkbox, or that you could "Turn On" the Hover Icons, or not, etc. is an interesting idea.

    Just thought I'd share my initial thoughts about the Hover Icons. A pretty powerful UI development!
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  6. #226
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    It's cool to see that the hover icons are proving to be useful. I'm actually thinking of implementing some of that in some of the non-art programs that I'm using... you've inspired me!

    I also have a hard time deciding on what the best setup will be. I think I may just need more time to think about it, and you have made some great suggestions. Without going crazy about all the hover stuff, maybe we could also consider separating the AHK tool toolbar from the main toolbar and adding a hover icon for it... or maybe that's not a good idea?... yeah, I still need to think about this.

    Also, I did have time to try remapping the second side button yesterday. It does indeed act pretty erratically in Sai. One of the main problems that I had (and that may just be my pen, I'm still waiting for my new pen to arrive) is that no mater what I set the second button to with the ISD settings, somehow the eraser bleeds through from time to time. So not only is the second button hard to remap (it acts very differently from the bottom one), but then I get interference from the eraser as well. So for now, I think we can assume that remapping the second side button will not be effective.

    Still have a lot to try though, so maybe remapping that second button will work beautifully once I find the adequate way of doing it.

  7. #227
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    It would be interesting to know how far we can push Hover Icons. I don't think I'm up for the idea of using it on the Tools Subpanel (mostly because the reason I think it's better than the Tools Palette is thats tiny, well laid out to be understood visually at a very quick glance, and is readily accessible onscreen all the time), however your comment that we might be able to use them on a UI of our own making (not just on a program based UI) got me curious.

    I could see, for instance, in a program like Firefox having it shrink to something tiny all the time would be very helpful. You're not using the AHK toolbar all the time in Firefox, and when you're not, it just takes up space. For the occasional usage that it offers there, reducing it to an icon makes lots of sense.

    I'm also very curious to see what we can do in Artrage. I've been playing around in it, and once you get past sketching one of the issues is getting to all the presets. Plus, all the presets automatically revert to a specific size as well. UGH! I began to wonder if there was an easy way to access the Settings Palette, for instance, reduced to a Hover Icon-- this would allow me to move dials around much quicker. Same goes for the Layers Palette and the Presets Palette. I'm less concerned about the Color Wheel because it already has a relatively reasonable interface. I also began to wonder, for example, if we could create a kind of slightly more sophisticated shortcuts panel for Layers (much like we have, but with a few more functions), that could then also be shrunk to a Hover Icon-- essentially, applying the Hover Icon ability to our own AHK interfaces as well. That would be both cool and helpful.

    Of course, the AHK toolbar in Artrage needs to be shrunk down as well, but that's a different issue. Though putting things like Layer buttons subpanel that we made into a Hover Icon accomplishes part of that goal.
    Last edited by Steve B; 04-10-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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  8. #228
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    I've done a simple mockup of one idea for the Sai setup in conjunction with the Hover Icons. As you'll see in the image, I moved the Main Header above both the Tool Panel and Main AHK Panel. My issue? I am having problems figuring out how to match the two rows of buttons because of the Transparency Bar. For now, I simply increased the size of the Transparency button and matched it to a Save Button to make the two bars the same length.

    I've thought of removing the Transparency Button altogether (it doesn't quite work right, as it often doesn't turn off when I want it to, plus I don't use it that much), and putting what was the horizontally corresponding Save button at the top of the Drop Down Menu instead. I thought this might be acceptable if I had some Eraser variants that I could easily click on if I wanted to remove some color (I use it most when "lifting pigment" when doing watercolors). I haven't yet developed more Eraser options, so I'm not sure if that'll work though. But it's one more idea on how to shrink it down, and keep things to a nice streamlined version. I'm not really sure though. Perhaps this setup will be fine.

    One issue I'm having with the Hover Icons is a lot of flashing and a bit of wigging out when I start them up and use F11, etc. The other main issue is that they don't seem to be turning off when I use the "Turn Off" script you wrote. I'm having to go into the Windows Manager and turn them off manually. Why does that matter? Because they seem to be affecting the use of Right-click in other programs. For example, in Firefox I can't use right-click gesture motions in add-ons like Fire Gestures or All-in-One Gestures if AHK is running. This has been the case with the normal AHK script as well, but I can turn that off. Now that I'm using the Hover Icons (which are awesome) and I can't turn them off when I'm done, that's causing problems. I'd just let 'em run if they didn't interfere. Just thought I'd mention the bug.

    I've also been talking to people in the Artrage community, and there are definitely people interested in the AHK setup. I'd like to see what we can do to that one, what kind of buttons I'd like to add to the Layers subpanel, and if we can make the Layers Subpanel a Hover Icon as well. I'm also curious to know if we can make things like the Settings and Presets panels be Hover Icons, for example. These would be good things to know. The buttons in the Main Toolbar for the Artrage setup are pretty done to me. It's mostly the question of making the work flow optimized with the Layers subpanel as I do more color work in Artrage and figure out better what I want.

    I hope tests are going as well as can be expected.

    edit
    size of the buttons-
    Buttons in Header, Tool Buttons, and other full-sized buttons= 33 pixels each
    1234 buttons= 16 pixels each, for now.

    I kept that little space inbetween things to represent the 1 pixel separation-- both between each row of 1234 buttons, and between the Tools subpanel and the "main" panel (not that it's very "main" anymore). I actually liked the 2 pixel separation you had going on, as it made it very easy to tell which tool I was working on, so that was why I was trying to apply it here.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Steve B; 04-13-2012 at 12:36 PM.
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  9. #229
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    Cool.
    Unfortunately, I'm still not done with exams... resurrection predicted for Tuesday morning!

    Indeed, I think the Art Rage toolbar looks good. Once we see how the smaller icons work out for you in Sai, then we can adjust that for the Art Rage toolbar also. For the hover stuff, we'll have to see. Art Rage works with its windows in a manner that's very different from Sai (and not very AHK-friendly), so it's not a given that it will work. We'll see, I just have to put my head to it and see if it can be done.

    For Sai, it should run much smoother when I include the right-click pan function and the hover stuff into the toolbar. The problems with the functions not terminating or them interfering in other programs should be easily eliminated. I'll see what I can do with the F11 stuff, it's on the list of bugs! It's weird that it's doing that only when the toolbar is on and I'll see what the problem is. Hopefully there is a solution, but for some of that stuff, I'm afraid that we may just have to accept that we are asking Sai to do stuff it's not supposed to be doing!

    Oh and by the way, you can also close the four hover scripts by right-clicking on their tray icons.

    I did have a little time (very little!) to try a few thing this week... but it didn't go where I wanted it to. Still can't do much with the second side button on the pen in Sai. That one is just not behaving well. Something else I thought of was to maybe launch functions when you double-click (just the pen, or with the side-buttons). There may be something there, but for now it's too buggy. I was successful in getting the resize tool function to kick in when you just double-click with the pen on the screen (actually works very well), but for now it interferes with the pan stuff and with another function. But maybe that's another area to explore.

  10. #230
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    Default Re: Photoshop toolbar

    Odd note- I've suddenly (the last day or two) lost the ability to Pan with the right-click in Sai. I don't know why. It's not even flashing the Hand on the screen. I rebooted and everything. I've still got the Hover Icons out, Sai up, right-click in Sai and in ISD for the bottom button. I have line 487 set to use Right_Click_2. I've tried it without the Hover Icons active but its the same.

    Has anything changed recently in the code? Is Pan working for you in Sai? It was working great for me before-- so good it never turned off! Remember? Trying to figure out how to get this back in action.
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