Apple iPad (1GHz, 64GB)

[heatlesssun]

So... do you blame the software of Adobe or Apple?

Your point is well taken as Flash historically has worked better on Windows than other platforms.

But the reason for lack of Flash support on the iPad has more to do with Apple wanting to control application delivery than performance, though for a low power device like the iPad and phones in general Flash performance is an issue.

[doobiedoobiedum]

-- But the reason for lack of Flash support on the iPad has more to do with Apple wanting to control application delivery than performance, though for a low power device like the iPad and phones in general Flash performance is an issue.

Yes but do you see the contradiction in what you're saying?

if you're deliberately setting out to create a low power consumption computer and one piece of software has not been optimised for that machine AND you have your own software (Quicktime) which works perfectly fine - why add to costs by implementing support for a technology that will drastically affect battery life and computer performance?

That has nothing to do with controlling application delivery in this instance - and more to do with making sure your device does what it is supposed to do and do it well?

If the decision forces Adobe to spend a little R&D optimising Flash support on Macs then that is good all around for Mac users as well as financially for Adobe (and all the Flash programmers out there). Currently, Mac users get a raw deal from Adobe - and interestingly as I pointed out in another thread previously, Adobe are now trying to find ways to get Flash onto iPads anyway.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/01/27/adobe-flash-ipad/

[heatlesssun]

Yes but do you see the contradiction in what you're saying?

There's no contradiction. Apple doesn't want a lightweight cross platform app framework for the iPad/iPhone/iPod. Period. It hits them in the App Store.

The fact that Flash is technically challenging on these platforms is just an excuse for Apple. There's already support for Flash on other low power devices, it is possible, but if Apple dosen't want it in the first place there's nothing Adobe can do about it.

[doobiedoobiedum]

-- Apple doesn't want a lightweight cross platform app framework for the iPad/iPhone/iPod. Period. It hits them in the App Store.

Do you honestly think that if Flash worked as well on Macs as it does on PC's that Apple would ignore all the potential Flash programmers?

Honestly?

-- The fact that Flash is technically challenging on these platforms is just an excuse for Apple. There's already support for Flash on other low power devices, it is possible, but if Apple dosen't want it in the first place there's nothing Adobe can do about it.

Did you read my link? Adobe ARE trying to do something about it.

It really comes down to who you blame - some will blame Apple even if they stopped making Macs and sold Windows machines - but really, do you blame the company that creates an OS or the company that doesn't optimise an application to run as well on a second OS as it does on another?

[heatlesssun]

Do you honestly think that if Flash worked as well on Macs as it does on PC's that Apple would ignore all the potential Flash programmers?

Honestly?

Flash on OSX is another matter. But no, Apple dosen't care about cross platform interoperability. Apple is ten times worse at this than Microsoft ever was.

Apple simply wants to lock up the iPhone/iPad and throw away the key. They don't give a rats ass about Flash as long as they can sell devices and get people to spend money at the (cr)Appstore.

Do you think differently? I just haven't seen Apple do anything more than lock up the iPhone/iPod more and more over time with people continually jailbreaking it.

[doobiedoobiedum]

Flash on OSX is another matter.

As you say, historically Flash has been poorly executed on OSX - always has been. That (in my opinion) is Adobe's doing - not Apple's.

But no, Apple dosen't care about cross platform interoperability. Apple is ten times worse at this than Microsoft ever was.

How? Apple always made quicktime work on both platforms, Microsoft supported Office for Macs but eventually gave up updating Internet Explorer. Apple also made sure iPods and iPhones could communicate with PC and Mac.

Apple simply wants to lock up the iPhone/iPad and throw away the key.

Well..................... the iPhone/iPad are Apple devices. Why can't they do what they want with their own devices? Nobody is forced to buy what they don't want.

They don't give a rats ass about Flash as long as they can sell devices and get people to spend money at the (cr)Appstore.

I had a feeling you were one of those who would blame Apple for Adobe's poor application of Flash for Mac devices. Or are you arguing that Apple should write an iPad OS specifically to support one application? IIRC, the iPhone OS structure was written many years ago. Should Apple dump that all just for those who would rather buy a PC anyway?

Strange!

Do you think differently? I just haven't seen Apple do anything more than lock up the iPhone/iPod more and more over time with people continually jailbreaking it.

Once you buy an iPhone / iPad what you do with it is your business - even forcing it to run an application like Flash that overheats your computer CPU and drains your battery power faster than Apple's own video player!

[heatlesssun]

As you say, historically Flash has been poorly executed on OSX - always has been. That (in my opinion) is Adobe's doing - not Apple's.

Not saying otherwise. As I said Flash support on the desktop is a sepatre issue that has nothing to do with the iPad.

How? Apple always made quicktime work on both platforms, Microsoft supported Office for Macs but eventually gave up updating Internet Explorer. Apple also made sure iPods and iPhones could communicate with PC and Mac.

That's Apple's technology. I'm talking about support for OTHER people's stuff. Apple just doesn't do it much.

Well..................... the iPhone/iPad are Apple devices. Why can't they do what they want with their own devices? Nobody is forced to buy what they don't want.

Of course they can but it is why so many people won't touch Apple stuff.

I had a feeling you were one of those who would blame Apple for Adobe's poor application of Flash for Mac devices. Or are you arguing that Apple should write an iPad OS specifically to support one application? IIRC, the iPhone OS structure was written many years ago. Should Apple dump that all just for those who would rather buy a PC anyway?

Strange!

I'm not saying any of this. Let me say it again. Lack of Flash or other add ons on the iDevices isn't a technical issue, its a BUSINESS issue. Apple doesn't want cross platform apps or apps that can be obtained outside the Apple AppStore. Can this be more obvious? I mean come on, a single source AppStore for EVERYTHING that you want to put on your phone? Yeah, total freedom.

Once you buy an iPhone / iPad what you do with it is your business - even forcing it to run an application like Flash that overheats your computer CPU and drains your battery power faster than Apple's own video player!

So jailbreaking is cool with Apple? Sure what you do with with ANYTHING your own business. Doesn't mean that its legal or supported however.

[doobiedoobiedum]

Not saying otherwise. As I said Flash support on the desktop is a sepatre issue that has nothing to do with the iPad.

OK, pretend you're Apple. You have a major OS machine and one software vendor hasn't bothered in years to optimise their product to work as well on your platform as it does on others.

When designing a new product (the iPad) do you suddenly throw everything you know and do out to create a new platform that is specifically designed to support Flash or make it work better - and that might mean making all the other things you're going to do work less efficiently?

Come on - where's the business case? What happens if Adobe suddenly stop updating Flash for Macs?

-- That's Apple's technology. I'm talking about support for OTHER people's stuff. Apple just doesn't do it much.

Of course they can but it is why so many people won't touch Apple stuff.

Are we talking desktops or iPhone type stuff? Where before the iPhone did any telephone manufacturer really produce phones that had to communicate well with other systems?

As I see it, Apple does it and changes the market but then suddenly it's their fault they created a success story.

Lack of Flash or other add ons on the iDevices isn't a technical issue, its a BUSINESS issue. Apple doesn't want cross platform apps or apps that can be obtained outside the Apple AppStore. Can this be more obvious? I mean come on, a single source AppStore for EVERYTHING that you want to put on your phone? Yeah, total freedom.

I go back to what I said first - why should Apple design a system based around software (Flash) that Adobe has historically never bothered to optimise? How many people would buy iPhones where the battery life was half that of other phones or running Flash Applications put a red-hot battery in your pocket?

-- So jailbreaking is cool with Apple? Sure what you do with with ANYTHING your own business. Doesn't mean that its legal or supported however.

I have no problem with people trying to put other stuff on their phones if they choose to - if they half their battery life then they made a personal choice to do that.

[heatlesssun]

I go back to what I said first - why should Apple design a system based around software (Flash) that Adobe has historically never bothered to optimise? How many people would buy iPhones where the battery life was half that of other phones or running Flash Applications put a red-hot battery in your pocket?

I have no problem with people trying to put other stuff on their phones if they choose to - if they half their battery life then they made a personal choice to do that.

Who said Apple should make major design efforts to support Flash? And why do you keep implying that Adobe doesn't want Flash to work well with Macs or iPads? This makes no sense. The point of Flash is its cross platform nature. The more platforms it runs well on, the better for Adobe because that's more people who would use it. This is just common sense.

Apple's motives are the opposite. They only want stuff to run on THEIR platforms. They want to control EVERY way to run code on those platforms.

[doobiedoobiedum]

Who said Apple should make major design efforts to support Flash?

You do know that Actionscript 1.0 and 2.0 don't support multitouch, and the company that first commercially provided us with multitouch was......

OK, now 3.0 supports multi-touch within the API and programmers can write multi-touch applications. Think about it - do they code for Flash on PCs (vast numbers of owners/users) or for the smaller numbers of Apple owners?

Either Apple should never have brought out multi-touch so they could use Flash (and still run the machines hotter and for less time) or deploy multitouch and ignore Adobe.

And why do you keep implying that Adobe doesn't want Flash to work well with Macs or iPads? This makes no sense. The point of Flash is its cross platform nature. The more platforms it runs well on, the better for Adobe because that's more people who would use it. This is just common sense.

I don't say Adobe doesn't want Flash to work properly. Multitouch and Actionscript aside - the code simply wasn't optimised. Other Adobe products work well especially historic Adobe applications. Adobe bought Macromedia to get Flash and the problems started within macromedia.

However, Adobe are the current owners of Flash and they haven't put the proportion of resource into optimising Flash for Macs. That cannot be denied. They have the cash and manpower so if Flash doesn't work well on mac platforms it's not because Apple doesn't want it to work.

Anyway -

Adobe Air 2 (and later Flash player 10.1) can only access touch events on Windows 7. So why even bother? With touch events you can handle the zoom and rotate in a much more natural way.

-- Apple's motives are the opposite. They only want stuff to run on THEIR platforms. They want to control EVERY way to run code on those platforms.

You have no proof of that I'm afraid - I don't want to google all the cross platform applications out there but you couldn't defend that statement beyond just not liking Apple.
I have no problem whether you like them or not - but don't get fooled by the current net discussion of Flash as an argument against the iPad. You're better off complaining about multi-tasking or lack of.